Author Topic: Need ID of one type of French swivel gun.  (Read 1466 times)

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Offline cannonmn

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Need ID of one type of French swivel gun.
« on: March 26, 2008, 12:13:26 PM »
I'm trying to complete this table. In the lower left corner under column 1 is the word "unknown" where the correct nomenclature or model name of a small French swivel cannon should appear. There are pictures of the small swivel cannon or gun at the links. All four of the guns shown are made of bronze; the one marked "4" has never been polished so of course is much darker in color.

This particular model of swivel gun does not show up too often. It is only the second one I've seen. The first one was mounted on a steel field carriage, and was owned by my late friend and fellow cannon collector Val Forgett. He kept it at his warehouse in WV, then sold it at the Baltimore Gun Show in about 1999. His example was configured with a typical "knob" type cascabel vice the two-holed flange "item 1" has in the photos. His also had more markings, namely a French maker's name beginning with "C" and the location, "Paris" as I recall. I can't find my notes, but the maker's name may have been "Chobert," a known 19th C. founder of bronze cannons who worked in Paris.

The documentation on the whole range of French naval swivel guns is poor. Two specific models, the M1786, and the Espingole (not shown in this grouping) are well-documented, and I've seen dozens of surviving specimens of either. Every secondary work I've seen which discusses French swivel guns has presented those two models as if they were the only French naval swivel gun types which ever existed. Obviously the surviving specimens of two other types prove otherwise.

Please let me know if you have any information on the item identified as "1" in the table and photos, or if you know of any surviving examples. I'd particularly like to track down the one Val Forgett sold so I could measure it and confirm its exact markings.

All 4 guns are  bronze.  Only the smallest "unknown" one has centerline  trunnions, the rest have low trunnions.

Click on the small pic to get larger one. 




























Offline cannonmn

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Re: Need ID of one type of French swivel gun.
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2008, 04:42:00 AM »
Here are links to pages from a French periodical with what a noted historian and author has described to me as the most authoritative source on the subject. I can read some French but not well, and this article may contain something about the model I'm researching and I wouldn't know it due to my poor French. It seems to describe the M1786 and the Espingole rather thoroughly, but I can't tell if it mentions any other models.

I don't post questions on ordnance because I don't want to do the research myself. I do so because I've already made all reasonable attempts to find what I'm looking for (sometimes for months or years) and haven't yet found all the information I need.

The first three links below are the text pages with information on "petit artillerie." The last four are included to show the source for the benefit of other researchers who may not be familiar with this hard-to-find article.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums9/IMG_8660.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums9/IMG_8661.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums9/IMG_8662.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums9/IMG_8599.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums9/IMG_8600.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums9/IMG_8601.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums9/IMG_8602.jpg



Offline Cannonball

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Re: Need ID of one type of French swivel gun.
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2008, 05:52:06 AM »
I started going over this with the wife's help and came up with a rough translation.

Besides classic calibers, 3,2 & 1 lbs. were used. They were replicas of 16th century design but were used up to the mid 18th century. The guns were more dangerous to the crew than they were to the enemy. They were cast iron with some type of 'pierrier a boite' breech block? of a poor design. After 1786 they were cast of bronze without the breech block?!. It goes on to say, oddly enough, the larger guns of old were cast of bronze and the smaller pieces iron where as in later times larger pieces were iron and smaller pieces bronze.

The second page we couldn't make out, but the third page is all about making a linstock. Can you obtain a better photo of the page?

Ill have at look at the rest when my wife musters up the patience to help me again.

This means your piece is of a later design than 1786 but doesn't say anything about the foundry who cast it or who designed it. For all we know it may have been captured by the french from one of their enemy's of the day. 

If anyone believes Ive made a mistake feel free to correct me. My wife and I speak perfect french, however, neither of us are familiar with french terms for various parts of the guns. Breech block is the only part that really fits the description they give, unless they are referring to a limber chest or case for something explosive. What else could be so injurious to the crew as well as the enemy?

The last photo is a table of contents to a chapter on the origins of various french ordinance. There's where you should be looking. Can you obtain anything from that section, (or send me the book!) and Ill do the best I can!

CB

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Need ID of one type of French swivel gun.
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2008, 06:28:26 AM »
Thanks very much for the translation so far, I'll see if I can get a blown-up image of the 2nd page.  Meanwhile, here's something on Pierrier a boite, an old style breechloading cannon used into the mid-18th C.  Personally I think the old breechloaders did OK with the weak serpantine gunpowder they were designed to use, but when more potent grained powder came into use, there were accidents because the materials and tolerances were not compatible with the larger forces involved:


Offline cannonmn

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Re: Need ID of one type of French swivel gun.
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2008, 06:51:54 AM »
Here are some blown-up images of the stuff that was too small to read:




Offline Cannonball

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Re: Need ID of one type of French swivel gun.
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2008, 07:31:41 AM »
Is the original  IMG_6594 larger than that posted? When I zoom in on that image the fine print is still illegible. Can you PM it to me please?

The last two images you posted open another can of worms, I think I'm missing something or Miss-understood something somewhere.
It talks about a certain component, often confused with something else and the error has been recorded in numerous documents over the centuries. I'm going back over it all. Somethings definitely wrong here. I think Ill NEED that image made legible to decipher this.
 

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Need ID of one type of French swivel gun.
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2008, 12:11:28 PM »
Thanks for trying.  Have sent the images, let me know if you need anything more done, a little dig. processing on this end is a very small chore compared to getting a good translation.  I also sent images of part of a book on naval weapons by Boudriot, a living author who has written a large number of books on naval topics.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Need ID of one type of French swivel gun.
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2008, 12:14:10 PM »
The messages I sent bounced from the yahoo addy listed for you on this site.  Maybe you could send me the email addy I should use to mail to you.