Is this a sign of case head separation? Pics

[snapcrackpop]

I would appreciate a little help on my reloading .243 and .22-250.
I have read through the FAQ's as well as talk to some buddies that reload (they don't have handis).

My 22-250 will shoot factory Winchester 45gr varmint loads (1" at 100yrds).   That's where the success stops. 
(Realoads shoot about 2-6" groups and the .243 doesn't like anything.)

I have noticed a ring where head separation would occur, on all most all of my fired brass, new and reloaded.  I had the friend measure my .243 brass shoulder length.  A new cartridge, a once fired and a re-sized brass measure accordingly: 1.620(new factory), 1.6165(resized) and 1.6270(shot). 
I think this accounts for my poor accuracy.....? 


I also see some pretty flat primers on both barrels and all types of recipies/loads....excess headspace again?



So now do I shoot all my brass, then neck size (or partial FL size) and things should improve?
Is the brass safe to shoot when it shows the head separation "ring"?  The "bulge" measures a little under .0005 when you "milk" it.  If not, how do I grow/fire form my brass when it stretches this much?  Cream of wheat...Fred info?

Should I send both barrels back?

I had a good gunsmith fit the 22-250 barrel.  Slight gap/headspace before and no gap now.  He filed the breach face a touch. (I sent him links to this web site and he thought it was very good information.)

[John Traveler]

That slight bulge at the base of your cases is due to the extractor holding the cartridge against one side of the chamber.  0.005" (one half thousandth) is nothing to be alarmed about.  Your fired primers also look good and not overpressure.

What is disconcerting is the amount your cases have grown from factory length and resized length to what your measurements show.  Overlength cases certainly do not help accuracy.

Both of these calibers are known for cases "growing" during firing, and your measurements show this.  An oversized chamber is one possibility, excessive resizing a second, and short chamber neck is another.  Try measuring the shoulder and case neck diameters before and after firing.  Those measurements will reveal if something is out-of-specification.

Are these factory chambered barrels, or rechambered from other calibers?

[John Traveler]

I just re-read your post and realize that your rifle exhibits 0.007" excessive headspace when using new brass.  If those measurements are accurate, your brass is either out-of-spec from the factory, or your chamber is too deep.  Either condition will give lousy accuracy.  Try another lot of cases.

[mjbgalt]

same thing i was going to say, that stuck out when I saw the pics. your primers look ok. if they're pressed in hard enough by pressure, they will look almost like they're part of the case head- no rounded anything, and the dent the firing pin makes will have a little rim around it.

those look ok...maybe toward the higher end of pressure, but nothing to freak out about overall.

another way to check it is to measure how long the cases are in relation to how long they were to start with. stretching happens faster when pressure is too high. Also, if the bolt lift is harder to do than usual, that's another clue.

-Matt

[stimpylu32]

SCP

The ring is not uncommon in Handi's , my 22-250 does the same thing . your best bet here is to neck or part FL size the brass now that it is formed to your chamber , do about 2/3 of the case neck , only enough to hold the bullet properly and your groups should improve provided you have a load that the rifle likes .

The primers look just fine so that is not a worry here , how many diffrent loads have you tried in each barrel so far ? it took over 20 loads till i found one that my 243 SL shot well . The 22-250 on the other hand shot very well after only 3 tries .

What powders and bullet combos have you been using ?

stimpy

[snapcrackpop]

So these cases are okay to reload, especially when neck sizing....

Other option is to send the barrels in and hopefully get one with better chamber measurements?

The primers look pretty flat to me, edge to edge, but definitely no bulging around the firing pin hole.
Why do the primers look like this again?  Because of the headspace issue?

Oh, and this is in the Handi rifles.  So no bolt, but sometimes they open & close harder than other times.

The .243 is an ejector.  The 22-250 is an extractor.  Darn gloves.
Both original barrels from the factory.

[KN]

My 22-250 Encore looked identical. Chamber length turned out to be excessive. I was setting the shoulder back too far when re-loading and I got case head separations after 3 firings. Bought a Forester "Neck and Bump" die and it fixed my problems. This die will neck size and just slightly bump the shoulder back. My reloads now "grow" about .001" per firing and after 7 firings of a group of once fired test cases they still look great and show no signs of separation.   KN

[snapcrackpop]

Stimpy,
In the .243 I have tried 4-5 powders at different grains and 3 different bullets and 5 different boxes of factory 100 gr stuff.
The 22-250 has had 2-3 different powders and only the Sierra 55gr, because I was given about 600 of them (along with all the other reloading stuff and the RCBS ammomaster!)

It was a HUGE relief to have the 22-250 shoot Winchester .45 gr JHP CPX1 factory loads shoot a 1" group.  At least then I knew it wasn't me, the scope, the barrel or a MYTH.  Now its down to my reloading skills & brass length issues....

[stimpylu32]

SCP

My 22-250 does best with the 55 gr. Hornady V-max bullets over a max load of H380 , 3 shot groups @ 100 are between 5/8" and 3/4" all day long . 

The 243 on the other hand shoots the 100Gr. Speer's best seated WAY out to the point that it is only .005 off the lands and it has a very long throat . I was beginning to think that its barrel was all throat and no rifling . 

stimpy

[blackhawk45]

0.005"


Not trying to pick on you but that number above reads  5 thousandths,         .0005" is 1/2 thousandths

[LaOtto222]

Just info - I am not going to go into how head separation happens. I am going to explain how to tell when head separations are about to occur. When a case head is about to separate, there will be a dull ring form just above the web; not a bulge. It may be "bulged" some and still be safe, but once this dull ring appears either part way around the case or all of the way around; it is a sign your case head is about to let go. If you pay attention during your reloading process and you experience this dull ring and then get head separations, you will not forget it. I experienced this when I first started to reload. I started with the 22 Hornet which is notorious for head separations. Once I experienced a head separation, I could tell at a glance when my cases were going to go South. The same principle applies to all cartridges. In straight walled cases where you crimp bullets, usually the case mouth fails before the head separates due to work hardening the case mouth crimping bullets.

[Grumulkin]

Some additional information:

1.  Besides the shiny ring on the outside of the case, incipient head separation can be detected probably earlier by running a wire with the tip bent to 90 degrees down the inside of the case.  With this simple tool, you can feel the groove that starts before head separation occurs.

2.  As noted above, straight walled cartridges hardly ever have case head separations.  An exception I've found is the 460 S&W Mag.

3.  When you are working up an accuracy load for a rifle use good primers (I use Federal, CCI or Remington match primers).  Also use a good match bullet (like Sierra, Berger or Nosler).  Use cases of the same brand (Nosler and Hornady are great but I've also had excellent success with military brass, Remington and Winchester brass).  Finally, use a powder that other reloaders have found to work well in that cartridge.  The Barnes manual and in many cases the Hornady manual names powders found to work well in a particular cartridge.  Once you've found a load of acceptable accuracy it's time to try other bullets of the same weight.  If you use good components and your groups aren't acceptable, then you know it's you, the rifle or the powder.

4.  In working up a load, I start at about the lower 3rd of the recommended loads and work up from there.  In cartridges the size of a 308 Winchester, I'll increase the loads by 1 grain increments until I approach maximum loads at which point I go down to 0.5 grain increments.  In a cartridge the size of a 222 Remington I would start with 0.5 grain increments.  Generally, groups will be large at the lower load, will get smaller and then will widen up again.  I pick the load where the groups are smallest (assuming pressures have been acceptable).

[snapcrackpop]

I did read about the bent paperclip trick and tried it.  Felt nothing...

I tried just neck sizing for the .243 and the load didn't shoot any better.  Then I tried partial FL sizing the 22-250 and almost half would barely chamber. (Had to slam it shut.  Take out the shell and could see rub marks on the bullet near the brass mouth.)  Today I have to go buy a bullet puller.

I wish I could send these barrels to someone, get them shooting, and send it back.
How much do I have to offer you guys?   J/K  No, seriously PM me.  Ha.

I still have some loads to try first and I'll keep working on my lengths.  Grrrr!
It just blows my mind how nice the 22-250 shoots factory Winchester varmint loads, and I can't find a reload (yet) that works!  See the 8 shots below at 100 yards.  1" square.

[wncchester]

The bulge you show in the photo is just ahead of the web.  It seems a bit large but not excessively so.  There is no reason to suspect it has any significant effect on accuracy.   It does show that your rifle's chamber diameter is a bit large but with neck sizing that won't matter.   

Adjust your FL sizing die so that the shoulder is only set back a couple of thousants and you will get very little case stretching.

[stimpylu32]

I did read about the bent paperclip trick and tried it.  Felt nothing...

I tried just neck sizing for the .243 and the load didn't shoot any better.  Then I tried partial FL sizing the 22-250 and almost half would barely chamber. (Had to slam it shut.  Take out the shell and could see rub marks on the bullet near the brass mouth.)  Today I have to go buy a bullet puller.

I wish I could send these barrels to someone, get them shooting, and send it back.
How much do I have to offer you guys?   J/K  No, seriously PM me.  Ha.

I still have some loads to try first and I'll keep working on my lengths.  Grrrr!
It just blows my mind how nice the 22-250 shoots factory Winchester varmint loads, and I can't find a reload (yet) that works!  See the 8 shots below at 100 yards.  1" square.

Do you by chance remember what order the shots were made in and how fast were you shooting the shots ? from looking at the target you have a nice 4 shot cluster and 4 more that open up the group . its odd that you would have some so close and others that far out from the same load .

With most of my Handi's the groups will start to open up if i shoot to fast and warm the barrel , my 223 does best with a warm to hot barrel while my 243 SL needs about 2 min. between shots or a cool towel over the barrel to keep temps down .

stimpy

[snapcrackpop]

No I don't recall the time between shots.  But they were not grouped by shot number.

its odd that you would have some so close and others that far out from the same load .

That's nothing, check out this 5 shot "group" with my .243.

These were shot in no particular order either.

Here is what my 22-250 shot today with Varget.  Shooting North with a 12MPH SE wind.

I guess it likes the lighter load of Varget best, huh?

Yellow = 33g Varget with 55g Sierra BT (1-2" group)
Green = 34g Varget                            (5" group)
Red = 35g Varget                               (2 damn big group)
Blue = 36g Varget                              (12" group)
White = Winchester factory loads of 45g HP CPX1  (stringing? but not in order of shots)

[stimpylu32]

SCP

The 33 grain load shows promiss , now to work on seating depth , without the one flier you had a descent group going . As for the 243 you may need to go back to the basics like checking latch engagement , lockup and trigger control .

By the way what powder / bullet combo are you using for the 243 ?

stimpy

[snapcrackpop]

The trigger right from the factory is impressive.  It started at 3 pounds, but I think it feels even lighter now.
The latch on both barrels look good with fairly even wear marks across them.  All clean and dry, no debris.

I had to FL size the 22-250 cases, because if I had it out even a 1/4 turn then they were hard to chamber with poor lock up and I get "rub marks" on the bullet next to the case mouth. (Why is this?)  I might be able to back out the FL 1/8 a turn....or borrow a neck sizer and try again.

The .243 cambers fine with neck sizing.  My best group is the one above (looks like I was aiming at 2 different bulls-eyes) using 32g of IMR3031 and 100gr Hornady BTSP.

I'm going to get some measurements of both brass again.
I'm going to do the 22-250 loads of Varget again and shoot them in a different order to see if I can reproduce the best group with the light load.
I plan to get some lighter bullets for both barrels and try again.

Also when I sell my CZ O/U I plan to get a Mueller tactical 8.5-25 x 40AO for working up loads.
Currently my .243 has a Mueller 3-9 x 40 and the 22-250 has a Pentax gameseeker 4-16 x 50 even-though I have felt good about how I'm shooting.

I got into the Handi cause I liked the ML(haven't shot it yet).  Then the bug hit me for any barrel for $100.  Now my enthusiasm is waining...

[snapcrackpop]

Just an update.

I finally found a couple of loads that shoot as well as the Factory ones from Winchester.
The LIGHT loads of Varget and IMR4350(slower burning) shoot ~1" groups with my 55g Sierra's(I have 500 of them).  Still have to play around with OAL and try some lighter bullets later.  Neck sizing and partial FL didn't work.  I had to FL each one before they would fit consistently.  What a relief.

Now on to my .243

[stimpylu32]

Thats good news and the fact that you have to FL size leads me to think you got one of the tighter chambers , which is not a bad thing .

Just to let you know my 243 took a lot of work to get dialed in . 

stimpy

[FW Conch]

      Stimpy,  why is the firing pin strike off center on the cases pictured @ the top of this post ?  Jim

[stimpylu32]

Jim

Unfortunately that is far to common in Handi rifles , the chamber and bore are off center from the pin just a bit , in most cases it does not effect how well they shoot . 

stimpy

[FW Conch]

   Stimpy, Tim gave me some advise on this on another post you probably read.  I have an SB2 30-06 & my cases look just like the pictures @ the top of this page.  I was all set to order a 243 Fluted BB & a 308 BB but after seeing & reading "this" stuff I'm thinking of going with "bolt" guns instead.  If I never get any better than the 1 1/4" groups out of this gun than I'm getting now I can live with it but I'm not sure I want to repeat it.  I'm getting by @ the moment by marking my cases with a file & putting the "bulge" in the same place so the action closes up nice & tight.  I started out shooting H & R   &  I have the "bug" but it's  150 miles to the range & further yet to the hunting grounds so time "is" a factor.

   What I may do instead, Handy wise, is order a 30-30 barrel & convert it to 30-40 Krag Improved.

   Your thoughts & comments will always be greatly appreciated. ;     Jim

[colocowboy76]

I found that when i crimped my 243 rounds the accuracy sent to hell.... just an idea

[deltecs]

One way to check for potential head separation is to take a paper clip, unfold it, bend the end into a short sharp hook, and insert it into the case with the hook rubbing the case walls.  If any stretching is occurring, a thinning of the case will create a very minor ridge easily felt with the hook on the paper clip.  A mic is invaluable for measurements, but if you feel the wall ridge, this is a good sign of too much pressure or bad head space soon resulting in probable head separation, if shooting continues with the same loads. 

[snapcrackpop]

Another update.

Had good luck at the range yesterday.
22-250 shot well with some 40g Sierra HPs with Varget and H4850 (forget the exact number), about 1-2" groups.
Definitely more consistent groups than the 52 & 55gr bullets.

Picked up a box of cheap ($12) .243 Federal 80 & 100grs. and the 100gr. shot better. 2".
Wish I could find a reload that would do that.

Now I have to wait for it to dry up around here and try them again at 200yrds.  When I sell my CZ shotgun I plan to pick up a Muller Tactical and work up loads with that on it.

My boys had fun shooting (6.5 and 8yrs).
Gave them my .17HMR and they shot water bottles at 50 & 75 yards.  Only one miss!
Younger one shot at a blackbird and took off 4 feathers.  I told him, "You gave him a haircut!"