7.62 x 25

[phalanx]

If you have access to some of the older reloading manuals ,this round is the spitting image of a 30 Mouser.
Some guys on reloading pages on the web are even comparing the two ,except the Tokarev load is very much hotter ,and they are warning about not putting it into the old Broom Handles.
The new cartridges made by Wolf ,are 88gr JHP ,they really move this round into a whole new world.

[Reed1911]

Our 85g XTP runs 1800FPS in the CZ-52. The 7.62x25 is a great little cartridge and while very very close in dimensions to the 30 Mauser they are not the same

[phalanx]

People talk about them on the web as being so close it hurts .I don't have a 30 Mouser in hand to Mic .one.
But from an old Lyman Manual on what it states ,and an empty Wolf shell they seem very close.
Of course i wouldn't interchange either ,But like the German MP44 with the round it shot ,the 7.62x39 .although not the same ,but it sure looks like a spin off.
Soviet Blocks were Known for this, like the 9x19 and their 9x18.
Anyway ,Hello ,1800 FPS ,85gr .WOW ,you guys are smoking  ,that is up there with 357 Mag.
Have you heard anything about CZ introducing a new pistol in the Tokarev round ? I did hear rumors ,along with Glock.

[Mikey]

If CZ offered a new pistol in 7.62x25mm I would buy the first one off the line and then buy up all of Ron Reed's 7.62x25mm loadings and never look at another 32 caliber pistol or revolver round, except possibly for the 7.65mm Luger and that would be just for schmidts and giggles. 

And, if Glock chambered a pistol for one I would even consider going plastic, if it had any sort of a decent trigger pull to it.  Actually, I think a single action pistol would probably have the best overall accuracy and if anyone ever wanted to come out with one in a target length barrel, with a decent set of sights on the slide, it would probably take the market by storm.  Just my 2 cents worth............. Mikey.

[phalanx]

Mikey ,its hard to even look at 9mm the same way anymore , and some guys are reloading the Tokarev round  with heaver bullets and putting 38sp. into the dust. It would be nice to get a gun in 1911 configuration using this round.

[Reed1911]

We've been working on it for a few years now, getting it in the 1911 and M9, the problem is getting a quality barrel maker to make them. Thought we had one for a while, but the project just kept getting pushed back, and back, and back, etc...

[phalanx]

Reed : you guys keep stoking that fire This is one of those surprising rounds that about the time you think it is a goner , it surges to the top . But it was hidden behind the Iron Curtain for years.
Like the 45/70 Govt , once thought to be dead and buried ,it came back as one of the top 10 most popular rounds used today ,and has all but eclipsed the 458 mag.
Like the fist fight between 44mag and 45LC , I now see a fight between the Tokarev and the Sig 357 and the 9mm.
But the 40S&W has done a lot to hurt the 9mm ,at first i didn't think i would like the 40 ,but after getting one it is in a class all its own.
Reed ,will a polymer frame hold up to a 7.62 x 25 ?
Magnum research has an article saying if it were ever put into the baby eagles , it would be based on their steel frame 40S&W platform.

[Reed1911]

It has its place but I don't forsee it taking over too much. While a capable SD caliber; for LE use its a no-go, way too much over penetration, we only thought the 357 sig caused problems. As a small cal hunting caliber it is certainly a great round, and as a long distance low-recoil caliber its great. Just another caliber to own in my opinion.

[Mikey]

Ron - penetration has its place ya know, even over penetration.  May not be too good for the LE guys in terms of liability but it sure makes some of us feel good.............especially to know that a bad guy would be leakin' from at least 2 holes......

I believe Colt once chambered its 1911 for the 7.62x25mm but I don't know how successful it was.  I can fit only 3 loaded 7.62x25mm rounds into my 38 Super magazines and I believe a redesigned magazine floor plate would well be in order to get more rounds than that into the magazine.  Also, I do not see how someone could rework a 9mm/40 S&W platform to function with the much longer 25mm round.  I can understand trying this with the 30 Luger - I have interchanged 9mm and 30 Luger barrels in 1911s and Browning High Powers and feeding and function were flawless with the proper recoil springs and the 30 Luger was a fun round to shoot.

I like the 7.62x25mm round.  My 7.62 Tokarev came with an extra 38 Super barrel I had ordered.  I use the Tokarev magazines interchangeably but 1911 magazines will only stack 3 rounds of 7.62.  I wonder how a double stack magazine would have to be modified to handle the 25mm round???  I would like to see the 7.62 in a new pistol, maybe a slightly larger version of the FN 5.7x28 pistol or even a re worked CZ52.  Mikey.

[Reed1911]

The mag issue

has been more or less solved, all of our standard loads fit and function fine from the standard 38SA mag (we had a liner fitted to a 1911 barrel), we load them a bit shorter than what you encounter on the surplus market as we found we achieved better performance that way both in terms of reliability and accuracy so we stuck with it and it works fine in the 38SA mags to boot. I've been approached about the Five-Seven, but to use it would take a whole re-design, you have to remember that the 5.7 is a blowback not a locked breech so as it now barrel and slight changes would not do it.

 penetration has its place ya know, even over penetration.  May not be too good for the LE guys in terms of liability but it sure makes some of us feel good.............especially to know that a bad guy would be leakin' from at least 2 holes......

As far as that statement goes, I carry a 1006 as my daily carry gun, full size 10MM with 175g WST's. Needless to say I too belong to the two are better than one camp.

[Mikey]

Ron - Now you have me interested.........., real interested.  I can understand a slightly shorter overall cartridge length but don't you get an increase in pressure when you seat the bullet deeper??? 

If slightly deeper loadings allow the 25mm round to feed through a standard 38 Super magazine then you're almost there.  Isn't there anyone out there who will make 1911 barrels in the 7.62x25mm?

What twist would you use, current standard twist or would you have something made to handle different, even heavier bullet weights??

C'mon, cough it up! Spit it out!  Spill the beans bud!  How much longer do we have to wait???  And, if you can find someone to manufacture a 7.62x25mm barrel for a 1911, would that someone also be able/willing to make barrels for the 1911 in your Reed's 22 Express??

Ron, we need to know.............................Mikey..................

[tn_junk]

I absolutely love my 52 Tok, and with a new spring and some bullets from Reed it is a powerful weapon. I plan on buying another as soon as I found a good deal.

alan

[Reed1911]

Mikey,

Grab a tissue bud you are frothing at the mouth. But you do see the overall picture here don't you  

Yup, so my whole line of thinking was to proof the 1911 in 7.62x25 (done) then move onto the .22 Reed Express (in process).

On the subject of deep seating, you are 100% correct, but you missed part of my comment. Our standard loads with the XTP HP's and RNSP's have shorter noses than the typical FMJ, so as they are now they run just fine, I am concerned that in the long term we may see some of the same issues that are seen with the 10mm on the 1911 frame but only time will tell and we'll be building them anticipating those issues anyhow. The next concern is that what we'll likely do is re-name the caliber a bit, a problem that was raised in a mind smashing meeting was, guy buys ones wants to shoot standard surplus or even S&B ammo, problem is won't fit the mag, well this guy is a smart one, has a die set so he'll just seat the dang bullet until they do fit, THAT will raise pressure above the intended load. By how much we can't tell since we don't know the load, seat depth, etc. Could be fine or it could be a disaster. So we call it the 7.62 American or 30 American Tokarev, or something along those lines just to help keep it from happening. It still will, but you can't anticipate all the ID 10 T's
Plan is to keep the twist at 1:16 to 1:14, enough to still run the 60's and enough to still run the 120's.

Now the hard part, anyone got about 250K to cough up for the initial barrel run? That is so far the best quote that I honestly think would get done if I say yes. See, you have to realize that 1911 barrels cannot be made from standard stock, there is just not enough material to include the lug. Otherwise I'd have my machine guy turn some out for true proofing like we did with the .22 Reed. But I digress, I'm still working on it time will tell.



 
[quoteabsolutely love my 52 Tok, and with a new spring and some bullets from Reed it is a powerful weapon. I plan on buying another as soon as I found a good deal][/quote]

I have a few sitting around, not in perfect shape, but damn decent running about 120-130 I've also got tons of new grips OEM type

[tn_junk]

Let me talk to my FFL guy and see what he will charge me to receive some. Couple of my friends, after shooting mine, want one also.

alan

[phalanx]

Reed:
If a 1911 gun were made ,would the receiver need to be changed in order to accept a different Mag ?
It would seem the entire gun may need to be revamped.
How about the 38 super ,with the right barrel would it work ?
On the Glock forum some guy said that Glock had a couple of prototypes now , one is on the 34 long slide  design.
You are right about a re-name ,he said Glock was going to call it the 30 Glock ,but you know forums it could all be BS.
If it comes out in a new pistol ,the 357 sig will be hurting ,but maybe not.
As big a company as CZ has become ,and the quality they produce ,its hard for me to think they would let someone steal their baby.

[Mikey]

Ron - you're right, I am frothing.  I just love ideas like this, but I gotta stop droolin'.......

The problem with the 10mm and the 1911 frame - frame battering?  I wonder! 

I understand the overall cartridge length issue with shorter bullets of different design.  Heck, for that matter you could probably use semi-wadcutter slugs too and still get positive feeding and if all it would take is a shorter bullet to allow the 25mm case to fit a standard length 1911 mag then I will need more tissue.......

I understand what you are saying about start up costs on barrel manufacturing but wonder how custom barrel makers go about it.  When I look at my Bar-Sto and Ed Brown barrels it seems that they are cut from one piece of material.  Now I'm wondering what it would cost to have a custom barrel in 7.62x25mm cut for a 1911?

Dang, where's the tissue..................Mikey.

[Reed1911]

Mikey,

Again the big problem is the stock material. Barrel makers just do not make .30 cal or .22 cal stock in the required dimensions to be made into 1911 barrels. Get me the stock and the barrels can be built no problem at all.

Yup, all that is needed is a shorter OAL to feed and run in the 1911 frame.

The frame for the 1911 is basically universal, just the slide assembly would be changed out. It would be based on the 38SA/9x23 Slide assembly.  CZ gave up on long ago, not their baby anymore, as to rumors about Block, well even if they did would you own one?

[torpedoman]

 i read somewhere that to duplicate the cz 52 in today's market would cost in the 1200- 1500 range because of the roller lock design, This is why it handles the pressure it does.I don't think that the 1911 design would hold up to this round. I'v been considering having a 762x25 barrel made for a handi-rifle considering that as a pistol round with the short barrel it has a one inch drop at hundred yds it should be dead flat out of a rifle.

[Reed1911]

Well, I'd call 1200.00 a bit over the top, true the roller lock design is more machining to add up the cost, but that locking has nothing to do with the strength, the strength is all in the metal. What roller lock does is provide a very slick action with little cost in the way of surface prep. Its simple and rugged and works well when dirty.

[kjeff50cal]

I don't think that the 1911 design would hold up to this round.

The original pistol the 7.62 X 25 was designed for (the Tokarev TT) was based on the 1911.