Author Topic: Forearm Spacer  (Read 1262 times)

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Offline Cookiemann

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Forearm Spacer
« on: April 03, 2008, 01:03:52 PM »
I read here, somewhere, that the forearm spacers are not all alike.  Are the variations in size intentionally done or are they just a result of loose specs at the factory??

cookiemann
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Forearm Spacer
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2008, 01:56:13 PM »
They vary some, but not a lot, could be variances in molds or whatever when they're made, but it's easy to sand or shim them to make for a good fit.

Tim
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Forearm Spacer
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2008, 02:21:23 AM »
Check them and you will find many seem to come from different molds and have different numbers, or no numbers) on the part, each of slightly varying thickness. IIRC I have run across 2's and 3's (possibly 1's as well) and also spacers with no numbers on them. I thought they may have been used in the final fitting to be able to get the correct spacer to barrel/receiver fit and tension. I have swapped and switched them around to get the correct fit on barrels/forearms I have switched and/or fitted for myself and my neighbor. As Quick said they may have just come from different molds and the differences may not have been planned that way but it does work out well, IF you have a supply of the different sizes. I no longer do and now find that I need a few more spacers. I will attempt to order them from H&R with my next order....<><....:) 
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline Cookiemann

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Re: Forearm Spacer
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2008, 12:28:13 PM »
Thanks, guys.  Andy, you're not talkin' big differences, right?  Only like a couple thousandeths, right?

cookiemann
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Forearm Spacer
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2008, 03:24:01 PM »
Yes Rich, the differences are in the thousandths but enough the make a difference and have the forearm fit properly. Some day you have a little time take any 3 H&R's you have and try switching the forearm spacers on the forearms and see the differences in fit you come up with. You might want to mark each spacer as to what forearm and which gun it goes to before you start though. Only 2 small Phillips head wood screws for each spacer/forearm. While you are doing it take notice of any number embossed on the spacer during manufacture, you may find different numbers, if they are all numbered the same, I suggest you check them with a micrometer to check thickness...<><....:)
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline NFG

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Re: Forearm Spacer
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2008, 03:56:59 PM »
I have 4 spacers on order and I'm really glad you brought this up...I didn't have a clue about it.  Any misfits or swap-arounds I came across just got shimmed to tighten up the action.  When I ordered the spacers the lady didn't ask if I wanted any certain dimension but after reading this post is does seem quite possible to have variation.  I just thought the factory left the forarms a bit long and used some kind of quick and simple sanding system to adjust for any variance.   We always need reminding we make assumptions  and all that does is make an "azz" out of "U" and "umption".  :D

Thanks 
'Njoy

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Forearm Spacer
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2008, 04:29:47 PM »
I had several different spacers for a while, but used some up on new guns that I put together, sent one to Talley, now I just sand em on the belt sander if they're too tight until the fit feels right, not too lose, or add a furnace tape shim if it's too lose, as MSP said, it doesn't take much to make a difference. I just got a couple from Numrich, they're older H&R spacers that have a gloss finish, dimensions are the same as newer spacers, ordered some more low profile hammers and wanted to get my money's worth on the shipping cost, so added the spacers! ;D

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline NFG

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Re: Forearm Spacer
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2008, 09:08:12 PM »
Wish someone would make a run of the steel spacers...or aluminum...and trigger guards.  I have the spacers on my todo list...todosomeday...out of aluminum.  I have a partial drawing of a bored block to split in half to make two.  Labor intensive on my manual metalworking tools.

We wish and hope...

'Njoy

Online Graybeard

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Re: Forearm Spacer
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2008, 12:37:02 AM »
GBO Sponsor Talley Rings is in the process of making up some rat now. The first ones will go to Tim for testing and to see if any final tweaking of the process is needed. Shortly afterwards they will determine the price needed to make it profitable for them and they will become available for all to buy.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

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Offline Cookiemann

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Re: Forearm Spacer
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2008, 02:05:00 AM »
There ya go!!  Thanks, Bill.  NFG, that's what I was thinkin', too.  Only, I don't really have the tools and was thinkin' of taking one to a local shop to see if they could duplicate it.  Sounds like it's in the works.  Thanks guys.  Looking forward to the finished product.

cookiemann
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Offline NFG

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Re: Forearm Spacer
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2008, 09:15:41 AM »
I've spent over 3 hours with my little drawing program building a drawing and thinking out the steps to actually do the milling and lathe work.  More of a learning/thought experiment.  The curves can be bored or milled but compared with CAD and CNC what I'm doing is stone age with a very dull stone axe.  I will still do  the project  as a learning tool and maybe come out with something useful...if not for actual usability at least the knowledge will be worth the T&M.

Looking forward to Tims trials and actual availability.

'Njoy

Offline Cookiemann

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Re: Forearm Spacer
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2008, 05:18:49 PM »
Don't know if I would have the patience for that.  Keep us posted on your progress.  We like to follow along when you guy get into this kind of stuff.

cookie
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Offline Willie496

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Re: Forearm Spacer
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2008, 05:48:09 PM »
My ultra varmint forend is tight against the barrel. I put a 3/32 stainless washer on the post and put the screw back in and a dollar bill will run very smooth around the barrel. Do I need to be concerned with a synthetic stock? I t shoots well now.. I was just messing around and found that it was touching not floating. What do ya think?
Thanks,
Willie

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Forearm Spacer
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2008, 06:18:43 PM »
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!! ;)

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline NFG

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Re: Forearm Spacer
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2008, 07:04:51 AM »
I  just received the 4 forearm spacers I ordered and measured them...there was 0.001" variation between the 4...two had #2 casting numbers and two had #3, and there wasn't any match between the numbers...one of each measured the 0.001" variation.  I measured the spacer on two other forearms I had from different rifles and both measured 0.008 to 0.010" thicker than the replacement spacers.   Different runs of casting and maybe from different places.

I've swapped around different forearms...synthetic and wood...some were tighter than others.  I replaced the forearm on my BC with an aftermarket one and had to shim that one up, but I also changed the mountings so I guess that doesn't count when comparing factory replacements. 

Always a controversy over floating, full bedding, pressure point and O ring style...I've done all 4 and I think it depends on the barrel's likes more than anything else...my heavier bull barrels seemed to like free floating, the lighter barrels were mixed...my 17 HMR shot as good as the ammo will do without any messing around and it didn't have any consistency as far as touching or not...it touched in some place and not in others...doesn't seem to matte on some and on one it didn't seem to matter at all, it didn't shot worth a **** and still doesn't...it will get re-chambered.  I've found this to be the same with all the rifles or stocks I've done over the years...the rifle tells you what it likes and you just have to listen.

I have an aluminum block semi finished and needed a 1.125" drill and reamer.  The drill came in Wed and hopefully the end mill will get here today.  The block will make 4 spacers at a time.  Took a bit of cogitating to get the design and setup to mill the outside curve...the rest is just milling and drilling...I will post a picture of the block before I cut it apart and after all the milling/drilling is done and the 4 separate pieces.  It should be a very simple CNC program...if I can figure it out, it should be totally simple for someone with real know-how, more brainpower and the machine tools to do. 

It will take about 8 hours total when finished and that includes making a couple of jigs for the first piece and milling down an oversized block, for me to do on manual machines and my speed...now that I know the steps and can use a standard sized aluminum piece, it should take about 2 hours or less.  That should put a piece in the $40-60 range for a commercial shop including T&M and profit for Alum...I'm not doing any to sell.

'Njoy

Offline NFG

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Re: Forearm Spacer
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2008, 04:33:25 PM »
See if I can get this picture to post????



Split it horiz and vert between the two holes and walllllaaaaa...4 alum spacers, slightly oversized to allow fitting. 

Broke a 1 1/8" endmill in the process...couldn't believe it...1/2" shank and it looked like it was epoxied together at the break....in aluminum with a pre-drilled 3/4" hole  Brand new, first time used...it's going back tomorrow.

'Njoy

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Forearm Spacer
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2008, 04:42:31 PM »
Nice work N!! ;) I've got a couple chunks of aluminum bronze that I'm thinking of using an endmill in my drill press on to make a spacer and trigger guard, but your idea trumps mine by a long shot!! I bought a 4" machinists cross slide vise at Harbor Freight and a 3/8" shank endmill set and mister from The Little Machine Shop, but haven't started on it yet, was kinda waiting on Gary at Talley to get back to me.  Sorry to hear about the endmill breaking, that stinks! :'(

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline NFG

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Re: Forearm Spacer
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2008, 01:21:25 PM »
Not to throw water on a project, but milling with a drill press just won't work unless the drill press has some kind of screw in chuck.  The side pressure and vibration of milling will cause the drill chuck to come out of the normal socket type way of holding a chuck.  Milling machines use several different types of tapers...R8, Jacobs, Morse, NMTB, Cat, BT, etc that use a long threaded rod screwed into the top of the tapered socket or other ways of locking the endmill in place against side pressure and vibration.  Look into it before you try it.  I know...I tried to do the same thing many years ago...I wasted a drill press except for parts use, trying to make a drill press into a mill. 

The best way is go with a Mill/Drill and R8 spindle and as big as you can afford.  Harbor Freight has several table top styles but looking around the net and getting on one of the many mill/drill forums will  get you where you want to go.

Practical Machinist, http://www.practicalmachinist.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/Ultimate.cgi, is a very good place to go to start with.

Yeah...breaking the shank totally blew my mind, but I think it was already cracked already.  The break look like it was held together by a very small area and was so hard I couldn't scratch it with a file.  Probably a defect in the bar used in the cutting and grinding process...or could have been bad heat treatment...doesn't take much to make a piece of high carbon steel very hard and very brittle. I've broken endmills getting hamfisted with the feed or too high a speed or the piece shifted or slipped...in steel...but never in aluminum...material that soft WON'T break a 1/2" shank unless something strange is going on.

Good luck on your project...I've never worked with Al-bronze, just know it's used as wear plates and BIG ships propellers.

Got the 6mm barrel chambered to 6mm BR...had a few problems but the chamber came out great.  Made up 4 pieces of 6mm BR brass to check out the chamber.  I used a .242 neck reamer so had to turn the necks to 0.009" thick and order a .258 bushing.  Very nice fit between the sizing die and the chamber...the sizer just barely sizes the base...hardly feel it.  Loaded up the 4 with 87 gr Hornady and 28 gr Varget, 2.15" long and they just fell out of the chamber...I don't have a ejector for that sized case yet...on order...pressure was around 45Kpsi.  I will slowly work up the pressures and go to Hornady 58 gr V-Max and Nosler 55 BT's.  Don't expect to much velocity with a 16 3/4" finished barrel length...33-3500 f/s.  If I decide to do another 6mm BR stub barrel I will go use a 6mm BR Lapua or Norma reamer and not have to futz around with neck turning, plus a 20-24" #3 taper barrel.

Next up is the 17 FB...only 12 rounds of 17 HMR left...which will be gone by Sunday...and the Ruger SS 223 rechamber.  Won't get to those much before next month tho'.

'Njoy

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Forearm Spacer
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2008, 01:32:49 PM »
I've been using it as a poor man's mill for 10yrs, it's working fine, I figure when it gives up, I'll spend another $70 for new one!! ;D I almost bought a mill/drill from Cummins for Christmas, but couldn't justify the cost for what little I have needed it for.

Tim

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Offline NFG

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Re: Forearm Spacer
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2008, 05:11:20 PM »
You're lucky, have good patience or have a good drill...I started with a Sears Heavy duty floor mounted drill and the spindle went south in less than a year milling with mostly 3/8 and 1/2" endmills and a lot of passes at 0.005" cut. Maybe too much flycutting...thump, thump, thump, bang, bang. After I bought a lathe first thing was learn how to cut tapers and make a grinding attachment so I could get the drill "fixed".  Cobbled it back together after a fashion then basically welded the chuck taper into the spindle.  Drill works fine now but when the chuck goes bad I'll need the hot-wrench to get any good pieces and parts out of it.    :'(

Got two rounds on paper at 50 yds...one above the other just touching...31.5 gr H4895...major PITA without a forend...not quite locking the action up...I could just get the thumb latch pushed down so that is all she wrote for that amount of that powder...I'll back off to 31 gr and try two more tomorrow.  Not real good as 33 grains is a top load at about 50Kpsi.  Velocity should be off by about 250-300 f/s also.  If that accuracy maintains at 100M then it won't be all that bad, but I won't do another stub barrel this way.  I'll save it for the XP-100 action that's been waiting for the same cartridge a couple of years.  ;D :-[.

'Njoy