Author Topic: Cannon spotting (Read 1929 times)

Double D · « **on:** July 27, 2007, 08:17:09 AM »

Was up at Fugitives Drift earlier this week and saw this sitting on wall. Anybody know what it is, I do!

GGaskill · « **Reply #1 on:** July 27, 2007, 09:46:44 AM »

There not being a Goex can in the picture for scale,

maybe it is a bronze Spanish 6 pounder of 1769. Doesn't look English without the belted cascable.

Double D · « **Reply #2 on:** July 27, 2007, 10:07:59 AM »

Bronze and 1789 is right George!!!

Powder can?, The last thing I was expecting to see when I found this was a cannon, let alone this cannon!

Blaster · « **Reply #3 on:** July 27, 2007, 03:13:27 PM »

Gee, I sure wish there was a powder can in the picture so I could judge scale of that tube.

GGaskill · « **Reply #4 on:** July 27, 2007, 04:22:50 PM »

Maybe it's Dutch since that is the origin of the Afrikaners.

lance · « **Reply #5 on:** July 27, 2007, 04:33:21 PM »

Double D, i don't know what it is. but since you are wandering around finding old cannons, recon you could find me one of those cool ZULU spears? sure would look good in my British black powder gun collection.i'm sure you know the names of Adams,Tranter, Kerr, just to name a few..........that's my real addiction,British guns,mortars,cannons.

Double D · « **Reply #6 on:** July 27, 2007, 05:05:33 PM »

I like how George keeps chipping away, he's thinking...Dutch it is but be more specific

Spears I can get, R650 for big blades and and R550 for small blades, R1000 to ship.

Terry C. · « **Reply #7 on:** July 27, 2007, 05:10:18 PM »

Uh, what does that translate to in dollars...

lance · « **Reply #8 on:** July 27, 2007, 05:34:12 PM »

dag gone Double D, shipping is a killer!!! so let's see about 140 something dollars to ship a 90something or 75 dollar something spear, i'll think about it.

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #9 on:** July 27, 2007, 05:42:18 PM »

Is it a bronze 4 pounder made by or for the VEREENIGDE OOSTINDISCHE COMPAGNIE, The Dutch East India Company?
Regards,
the other Tracy

Double D · « **Reply #10 on:** July 27, 2007, 06:01:31 PM »

Give the man a kewpie doll. Good going the Tracy. This gun was laying on the wall at Fugitive Drift Lodge in Central Zululand when I was up there earlier this week. (delivered 1700 books) They think its a 3 PDR.

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #11 on:** July 27, 2007, 06:18:40 PM »

DD, this time one of our book purchases came in handy. About three years ago a bunch of nice folks from the Miniature Arms Society pressured me just a little to bid on a book detailing about all there is to know about Dutch cannon while we were attending the Houston Gun Show. All of the profits went to the NRA, so being a real newbie at auctions I ended up with it and $150 went to the NRA, a good cause. There is one large section devoted to the VOC cannon. You spotted a real nice one which appears to be in excellent condition. Thanks for posting such nice pics; we do love the old ones!!

Tracy

Double D · « **Reply #12 on:** July 27, 2007, 08:02:55 PM »

Tracy,

Is there anything on markings? There are some marking on that cannon that just don't look arbitrary or decorative.

Lance, pick one: Zulu spears

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #13 on:** July 27, 2007, 08:28:52 PM »

DD, yes there are quite a few good photos of these VOC guns. Mike and I are out at Fort Point near the southern abutment of the Golden Gate Bridge in California this week without that book, but I sure will look as soon as we get back about a week from now. If you want, post the pics for identification or send them to us via email attachments, which ever you prefer.
Until then, Regards,

Tracy

lance · « **Reply #14 on:** July 28, 2007, 08:00:05 AM »

Quote from: Double D on July 27, 2007, 08:02:55 PM

Tracy,

Is there anything on markings? There are some marking on that cannon that just don't look arbitrary or decorative.

Lance, pick one: Zulu spears

Double D, i might pick a pair, but not sure of which ones are up for grabs??? plus my neighbor likes British and zulu stuff too, so i'm going to see if he might want a spear also. are you coming to the U.S. in Aug? spears with you on the plane? or shipping?

lance · « **Reply #15 on:** July 28, 2007, 08:51:45 AM »

Double D, my neighbor is out of town,his loss....... i would like a big blade short stabbing spear, i trust your judgement to pick one out for me. just knowing it's Zulu made,and you are getting it in Africa is good enough for me.

Div Arty · « **Reply #16 on:** July 28, 2007, 11:04:13 AM »

Tracy and Mike

I don't want to get off topic, but if you are driving east from San Francisco, you might want to try Highway 4 it has some great sights when you hit the Sierras. We have some great Sequoia redwoods and one of the largest Gold nuggets in the world.
Give me a shout if you are interested. You would be welcome. muiri@goldrush.com Ron

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #17 on:** April 24, 2008, 02:18:38 PM »

Double D, It took us quite a while to get you some info. on that cannon you spotted at Fugitives Drift in Kwa-Zulu-Natal, South Africa. The book I mentioned in July of last year disappeared for 8 months and just re-appeared yesterday! What an unusual place to find a cannon made for the Dutch East India Company in 1769, at a spot overlooking the dramatic scenery of Isandlwana, the site of one of the most significant battles of the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. We are certainly glad you did spot this cannon, as it gave us an excuse to learn a lot more about this area's history and also a bit more about the cannon you found.

Although the gun described in The Visser Collection by Rudolf Roth, with both markings and a founding date within two years of your's, is a one pounder swivel gun which has very similar proportions and lines displayed on your larger cannon. What we learned from this book is this: The 'A' marking stood for Amsterdam, the location of the Dutch foundry in which this cannon was cast. The master founder was Pieter Seest who followed Cyprianus Crans, just three or four years before your gun was cast in 1769. The intertwined VOC marking represented the Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie, the Dutch East-India Company, a huge trading company which maintained native armies to do it's bidding on several continents. The smaller 'A' with adjacent 'o' at two o'clock after the founder's name stands for 'anno' or 'year'. During his career, Seest first lengthened the first and second reinforces and thickened all diameters noticeably, but later reduced thicknesses as he became a more experienced and confident founder.

At the bottom of your third photo is the Amsterdam Town Mark which has turret, capitol, dome and circular finial features. The trunnions are below center just as the ones in our book's drawing are. The surface decoration including bands, fillets, astragals and moldings and vent field decoration appear to be very, very similar.

We tried to get as much detail in our photo as possible by elimanating a few items at the top and at the bottom of the page. At the Page Top appears:

BRONZE 1 - PDR 20 cal. length

H. Visser Collection, Holland

Drawing: Scale 1:5 by R. Roth

At the Page Bottom appears:

P. SEEST. A ^o 1767
606 cc 1993, R. Roth

We give full and complete credit to the author for these facts presented and for the absolutely outstanding drawing presented here. Mr. Roth is, indeed, a very talented author and illustrator.

See photo below. Regards, Tracy and Mike

cannonmn · « **Reply #18 on:** April 25, 2008, 12:12:34 AM »

Thanks for renewing this thread. I collect objects cast by the Seest family, as well as other Dutch founders. I have a number of cannons and a bell at this point. If anyone finds stray "Seest"-marked bronze castiings, you are welcome to bring them to my attention. I can give them a good home, and since I'm a patinophile, I won't clean them.

dan610324 · « **Reply #19 on:** April 25, 2008, 10:13:44 AM »

I have seen some voc guns, but most of them have had the amsterdam lighthouse and the marking : p seest at the bottom side of the gun .

if you look carefully it aint just an A , there is also an rised o , yes Ao is an short for anno = year .

there was also another common way to sign the voc guns , see picture below

this gun was in extremely good condition .

cannonmn · « **Reply #20 on:** April 25, 2008, 01:49:05 PM »

Quote

common way to sign the voc guns

What's pictured is the cannon founder's name, which has nothing to do with VOC directly. The same foiunder would cast cannons for anyone who paid him, and would probably put his name in the same place on each one, unless the customer prohibited it.

dan610324 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 25, 2008, 07:53:51 PM »

yes thats correct , but the voc guns wasnt only cast by the seest family in amsterdam

what I can remember I have seen at least 4 different founders names + the seest family on voc guns

the voc company existed during an very long period of time , 1602 - 1798 .

they had 4 700 ships during that time period , nearly 1 700 in the 17th century and a good 3 000 in the 18th century .

I dont know for sure , but an good guesstimated figure would ba that minimum 10% of them sank by one or another reason
lets say that an average voc ship had 30 guns , that mean there is 15 000 of them at the ocean bottom , minus those who already been picked up .

so they probably had a "few" cannons manufactured

but all of them had the voc logo + the foundry Master name on it