need help deciding

[ajm]

  I need help deciding between an ak 47 or an ar 15.  I know that they are two completely different weapons and completely different prices.  I need some persuading on which one to lean toward.  I am leading toward the ak 47 but am still open to some advice.  Help would be much appreciated.

ajm

[SharonAnne]

if you do not plan to hit anything past oh, say 150 yds the AK will be fine. Yes, the 7.62x39 has .30-30 power but it has minute of barn accuracy. with switchable uppers you can have an AR in anything from 5.56 to .50 Beowulf,even 7.62x39. You can hit targets, depending on cartridge/barrel out to 1000 meters with the AR platform. Just my opinion.

[Default]

 OK i have to disagree with sharon ( even knowing the thread conversation between her and shooter lol) Aks can be more accurate then given credit  , i have shot to many Mil Comps at my gun club back in Florida to be told different , Now in all fairness there is a great number of variation in manufacturing from country to country  builder to builder ..On average the AR is out of the box more accurate no doubt ... Maybe i got real lucky with my norinco , maybe its good teachings the shooter learned from .. Nonetheless there are a number of factors that can weigh in on this choice Ajm ... You save money for ammo by going with the AK . Due to the money saved on the rifles cost, you have one of the most widely used rifles in the world , Power , Reliability and Simple ... It does exactly what it was design to do over 60 years ... The AK is Tough and sexy and effective as hell in its own right (ammo is still cheaper then 5.56 /223 also) and those are all very attractive attributes for the type of rifle this is..

  Now the AR is a good gun too in its own right ... Had a good amount of issues when it was first released  back in the mid 60's , those bugs thankfully enough have been sorted out .. though the AR is a bit more picky on wt. grain of bullets due to the rifles twist rate of the barrel  ( not always a for sure , I have a mini 14 that loves a Hornady 75 grn match load offering from black hills with a 1 in 10 twist) but you, like i will find what the rifle likes most ..like the AK there is no shortage of after market gear to bolt onto the rifles ..  i assure you ,you will have more failure to feeds and extract type issues with the AR then you with with the AK .. Not saying that the AR is super bad about it but it happens and with a couple AKs and a AK74 under my belt with plenty of mileage through them all i havent recorded one failure !  The AR will leave you alot of options in different caliber choices as sharon mentioned , accuracy options as well  ( they are by far one of the most acceserisable rifles out there) your ammo will cost you more , point blank ... there isnt any arguing that , even reloading i know a number of reloaders that arent right now due in large part to the cost of components .. on that note , you can reload at a lower cost for your AR and you have a good chance of improving accuracy with the rifle even more then it is already .

     What i guess it comes down to is are you wanting to reach out to 400+ yards and touch things ? it will cost you more to do so  ( rifle , ammo and items)
     Or are you wanting a point blank indestructible  close range weapon that even ex seal (friend of the family) members have said with out a doubt is a no BS weapon

         They in the end are both tools and its really what role you want that tool fill that makes the decision , if you are like most average working guys .. the AK for its cost and no shortage of choice of manufactures  is a good viable choice , cost less to feed and cant be killed even under neglected condition i.e no cleaning for prolonged periods of engagement
    The AR is far more finicky  she likes to be cleaned on a regular basis to keep optimal performance up , Thou she pays off in longer range accuracy for that effort .


     I know long winded , but my hope is to help and i hope it did.

            Default

    A after thought  ... Was at the range today with my Colt AR and my AK74 ..Both shot out to 100 yrds with the military sight ..  AK shooting bulgarin WASP mil spec grouped in a 3 1/2 pattern . the AR shooting hand load 68 grn. Match put up a group of 1 1/4 inch print              AK 74 + 1080 round tuna can of mil surp = $430            AR + reloading  (everything) = $2500+        you make the call what a couple inches is worth to you out to 200 yards       

[SharonAnne]

back in my motorcycling drag racing days you could buy a $50 helmet or a $500 helmet. how much is YOUR head worth. same for rifles. how much is your life worth.

an ARMY National Guard gunsmith who also runs a well known gunsmithing business (Accuracy Speaks) spent 18 months in the sandbox said the AKs brought to him for work are the worst POS he has ever seen. He will pick the M16/AR15 platform over an AK any day.

By Defaults numbers, HIS AR is as accurate at 300 yds as his AK at 100. Not much of an endorsement for the AK. Yes, the AR costs more to buy and feed but again, how much is your head worth?

Failures to feed are almost always magazine related. Test your mags, keep the good ones, trash the bad ones. The extractor fixes are cheap and available at any AR supply source.

As to what weight bullet works in what rifle that is a no brainer argument. The new rifles come standard with 1/7 twist which will handle all 5.56 bullet wts. The Mini 14 is a recreational rifle that in the past has demonstrated accuracy worse than AK47s. The new ones have yet to show us what they can do. Yes the 55s are not at their best with a 1/7 twist barrel but still more accurate than any AK. For the AK it too is a no brainer since you can have any gi issue wt you want as long as it is 125gr.

As to general reliability, 3 Gun competition is the toughest civilian test we have. The only time AKs show up is when a newbie tries out the sport. No AK has ever finished in the top 16 of any major 3 Gun match. They are too inaccurate, have poor ergonomics, slow to reload, poor open sights and have poor prospects to mount telescopic sights.

Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chance. That couple of inches at 200 yds, 7" vs 2.5" (or 9 inches difference at 400 yds by Defaults numbers) can mean the difference between a hit and miss, or you living or dying.

My money goes on the AR.

[mcwoodduck]

I own one of each.  My AK is a NHM-91 a long barreled "varmint model" that I bought to shoot High power rifle matches at the club I belong.  My scores went up from shooting the little carbine I have.  But my scores were still in the 350 -375 range. Match is at 100 yards with 50 rounds, 500 points possible in three positions.  Prone, kneeling/ Sitting, and off hand or standing.  The AK did hit targets and was accurate enough and the ammo at the time was dirt cheap. 
Just before the last AR ban in California I purchased an Armalite AR 15-A2.  My scores went up to the 400-425 range.  If I would slow down and practice a little more I know those could go up.  Hands down the AR is a more accurate platform. It is modular and the plain jane model can be tricked out to include all kinds of stuff to be bolted to it like lights and point sights.

[Default]

 Sharon
   I cant tell you the last time i saw a production AR coming the 1 in 7 twist hun .... but yes its universal that the ar is more accurate in the long range aspect .. I was just placing the decision out there in a manner that showed the valid points of each tool with the price tag in mind , cause for most that price tag is a concern .. If it wasnt then AJ would have probably posted " I just bought both "  hahaah ... the ones in the sand box ? yeah i bet they arent much to look at accuracy wise of cosmeticly ... Then again the ak can be built in the simpilist of machine shop .. Have seen photos  of a machine shop in one of the rat tunnels used in vietnam where they were making AKs ... i dont think you'll see one of those making ARs anytime soon  But again the hunter chooses his tool for his needs and for his terrain ...By reading i see you live in the local sand box we call arizona , yeah i think the AR platform suits you better there as ranges are sick out there  .. here in arkansas range are alot less of course you could find some serious distances if that is what your looking for ...But again choose the tool that suits you and your terrain my woods here would keep a engagement close range ... the punch of the 7.62 has its merits when cover such as trees brush and walls are concerned especially cinder block or brick  ... i was blasting at a few rocks with my ar at that before mentioned shooting session and wasnt impressed  ... but I'm fortunate enough to have alot of options when i crack open the safe  2 AK (47 and 74) and 2 AR (one 5.56 the other 308)  to name a few..

     But for a person wanting for their first combat style rifle either is good in its area of design  ...And yes the Mini is known for its lack of good accuracy but it like the AR can be improved upon   ..  So there ya are AJ   ... Im sure more will chime in to help the debate on AK versus AR  they always do  heh

      Hope some of that helps ya brother
   
             Default

[cjclemens]

I have one of each, and I would have to say it depends on what you want to do.  If you just want to shoot cans and make a lot of noise, go for the AK.  If you're thinking about doing some varmint hunting or target shooting, the AR is your best bet.

[mcwoodduck]

Sorry,
I had to board a plane and was not able to finnish my last post.
The AR and the AK can have stuff bolted on to it.  Tapco makes stocks for the AK that allow for bolting on equipment.  Everyone makes stuff to modify the AR and your chioces are unlimited.
Are you getting this for home defence or are you looking to start doing 3gun with it? 
If it's 3- gun I would use the AR.  It's easier and faster to reload.  I have worked out a great system to load the AK but it is still a second slower.  Same system works well for the Mini and the M1A.  It sounds goofy but it is better than the other options I have seen.  It makes the rifle stable and makes the snaping the mag into the well easier, more positive and quicker.  The AR is with the trigger finger you push the mag release and insert the next one.
I saw that you said 1 in 7 twist?  It was the standard for the AR when the bullet weights were 55 grains.  Now that the military and the High Power shooters are going to heavier projectiles the 1 in 9 twist is standard on all A2 models.  If you are looking at an older AR15-A1 it will work and work great with all bullets you feed it at short range but will like the lighter bullets more accurate at longer ranges.
If you are looking for a closet rifle that will sit for years and years as a home protection gun.  I'd get the AK.  It will go bang everytime and with grease in the gun it will work.  The AR likes oil rather than grease and the oil over time will run leaving the gun dry.  The AK needs almost no maintence and the gun is loose and will work with any ammo.  The AR on the other hand usually does not like the steel case ammo with out a lot of lube.  It's OK at the range when your wearing glasses and the oil is splattering but at home, at night in the wee hours of the AM a dry AR may not work on multiple rounds with the cheap steel stuff.  If you go AR buy some good ammo.  Federal 60 grain Nosler Partitions or Hornady TAP and get enough to test fire a whole magazine to see that there are no jams or malfunctions with the mags you are going to keep with the gun.  Nothing is louder than a gun that doesn't go bang when it should.

[cjclemens]

I saw that you said 1 in 7 twist?  It was the standard for the AR when the bullet weights were 55 grains.

AR's started out with 1:14 twist and were quickly switched to 1:12.  These twist rates handle 55 grain ammo much better.  The later AR's are 1:9 and now 1:7.  Mine has 1:9, and it loves 62 grain and heavier bullets.  With 1:7 rifling, I would reccommend using 68-75 grain bullets.

The AR on the other hand usually does not like the steel case ammo with out a lot of lube.

I use Wolf brand 62 grain hollow points for just about any occasion, and I've had no issues whatsoever.  I don't spend a lot of time cleaning or oiling any of my rifles either.

[phalanx]

A barn MOA i guess you haven't shot a VZ 58.
But of course a 58 isn't an AK , its light years ahead of that.
Using the new Wolf  154 gr. JHP  it is a best of all the Carbines.
If i am worried about targets over 150 yards i would use my M14.

[SharonAnne]

Phalanx. The OP was asking about the AK47 and AR15. He was NOT asking about the VZ58 or the M14. So unless you intend to hijack his thread please stay on topic.

The original twist for the Armalite AR15, renamed the M16 by the military, was 1:14. Because of inaccuracy problems in arctic conditions the military geniuses changed all M16s to 1:12. When the military switched to 62gr ball the twist was changed to 1:7 to stabilize the 72 or 77gr ( i forget which) tracers.  For match accuracy with 68 &75gr bullets the 1:8 twist works better.

[cjclemens]

AR's started out with 1:14 twist and were quickly switched to 1:12.

The original twist for the Armalite AR15, renamed the M16 by the military, was 1:14.

I think there's an echo in here

[Singleshotsam]

Yeah...an AK will go bang everytime you pull the trigger...

An AR15 will go bang every time you pull the trigger and put the bullets where you want them to go...

Any rifle should be well cleaned and maintained... I've laid my AR15's in the dirt before, and never had a jam... I've fired wolf, 12 year old UMC ammo, Federal bargain boxes, American Eagle, Black Hills, and a bunch of other ammo w/o a single mis-fire.

[SHOOTALL]

Nither would be the choice for attacking targets at 1000 yards , odds are that 100 to 1 AK's have been produced to AR's . If parts mean anything that might be something . Cost of rifle may be a factor the AK wins there . Consider also the AK was produced/ used  in some places where high tech. did not exist so many parts are robust and hand fitting min. The AR is quite a marval with reguard to high tech. and some say less robust . The controls are easier to use on the AK ( bigger for gloved hands ) ( yes i know the trigger guard hinges down on the AR for glove use also ). Ammo may be easier to get for the AK but is it quality or junk ?
The AR most times will shoot a tighter group But min of attacker is tight enough in a defence mode . And the gun that will be the fastest to place bullets in the threat will most likely be the one you will want . SO go shoot both and see which will do what you need it to do !
Or go get a Ruger mini-30 or 6.8 and enjoy !

[mcwoodduck]

Have you come to a desicion yet?