Author Topic: 25 auto or 22lr (Read 3739 times)

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #30 on:** February 25, 2008, 09:40:22 AM »

if you do it right ( conceal that is ) how would they know ?

Bigbuck · « **Reply #31 on:** February 26, 2008, 11:00:31 PM »

I'll echo the wisdom already spoken here.....a .32 or .380 in the Kel-Tec variety would serve you well. I'll even take it further and say that you would be really suprised what a Smith Airweight and a decent in the waistband holster or a pocket holster could do with that little 5 shot .38 +P Special.

I also have a little Kahr K9 that I tend to forget I'm wearing on my side.

With all that said, most of the time, in addition to whatever firearm I may be carrying, there's usually a little NAA mini .22 lr revolver in my front pocket....kinda as a true last resort....it's never my "main" carry weapon. (Check on the NAA Guardian series as well as the Kel-Tec. I also understand that Ruger is coming out with a small pocket pistol pretty soon)

Concealed carry is not supposed to be comfortable. You must make clothing allowences. It is, however, designed to be comforting.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #32 on:** February 27, 2008, 03:47:50 PM »

any carry that is not reasonable as far as comfort will be abandoned by most in a short time !

NCdad · « **Reply #33 on:** March 26, 2008, 12:15:07 PM »

I have read all posts to this topic with great interest. I am interested in buying a handgun and later a CCW permit. I am looking for a 'pocket pistol'. I have considered everything from .22 up to .380. I shall soon go out an test guns up to 9MM. One crucial aspect of this topic has not been discussed. It is ballistics. In my opinion, the .22LR might do he job, but the .25ACP should be ruled out completely. I buy Remington ammunition so I consult their ballistics tables. The Remington ballistics table shows that .22LR have between 140 to 159 Ft. lbs. of energy at the muzzle. The bullet weights go from 33 to 40 grains. Their .32 ACP has 129 lbs. of energy for a 71 grain bullet. Their .25 ACP has a 50 grain bullet with a meager 64 foot lbs of energy! This is less than half of the energy of a .22LR ! I will not tell anyone which round to pick, but I believe that no one should select a .25 ACP pistol for anything.

Good luck -- NC dad

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #34 on:** March 26, 2008, 01:15:03 PM »

NC dad,

Keep in mind when comparing the .22 LR with the .25 ACP the ballistics you looked at for the .22 LR is coming
from a rifle. A .22 LR out of a pocket sized pistol will be very comparable to a .25 ACP. When you get down to
energy levels that low shot placement becomes even more critical along with penetration.

navylawdog · « **Reply #35 on:** March 27, 2008, 12:03:34 PM »

While we are talking about pocket pistols and calibers does anyone have any experience with the .25 NAA caliber?

Navylawdog

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #36 on:** March 28, 2008, 01:05:56 AM »

NCDAD ,before you buy try a mod. 38 S&W airweight , put it in your pocket and draw it . Then put any small auto in your pocket and draw it . You will see !

PartsMan · « **Reply #37 on:** March 28, 2008, 03:59:26 AM »

I've read that the 22mag has a better record than the 25.
It's also easier to find in stores.

slim rem 7 · « **Reply #38 on:** March 28, 2008, 05:45:21 AM »

get the 380 kel tec.. put corbons in it and you might as well be shooting an 38..
my .380 is smaller than my little 22 berreta is.. less noticeable too in your pocket..love my little berreta but its not the stopper the kel tec is.. tested several protection rds and was a bit disappointed .. then tried the 380 corbon 90 or 95..
cant remember.. dont matter tho as it does real nasty hits..you will be surprised if you go that way..good luck

Ghugly · « **Reply #39 on:** March 28, 2008, 05:49:34 AM »

I used a Raven Arms .25 to stop and hold a guy who was trying to steal my car. He seemed suitably impressed. 30 odd years ago, I worked for a guy who had a small mom and pop grocery store. When I came in to work one afternoon he was wiping up the blood from the guy he had killed a couple of hours earlier. It seems that he was in the back of the store when a guy came in and pulled a gun on my employer's son. Ken (my boss) walked up behind the guy and shot him in the back of the head with a .25. The guy went down, then started reaching for his fallen gun and Ken shot him in the head again. That same day, Ken traded the .25 in on a .38. In fact, the only time Ken would mention the incident was to cuss about "damned worthless .25's."

As I understand it, Ken was a Korean War Vet. who had really been in the middle of it. He wasn't all that big or impressive to look at but, if you ever truly needed someone, he was the guy.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #40 on:** March 28, 2008, 07:43:06 AM »

lets turn this around , what are the advantages of say a 25 or 22 auto over a say air weight body guard in 38 spl. ?

Mikey · « **Reply #41 on:** March 28, 2008, 10:38:49 AM »

None! Size maybe but otherwise, none. jmtcw. Mikey.

navylawdog · « **Reply #42 on:** March 28, 2008, 11:05:33 AM »

Quote from: Mikey on March 28, 2008, 10:38:49 AM

None! Size maybe but otherwise, none. jmtcw. Mikey.

That's exactly what I was thinking as well. I don't think there ever could be a comparison.

Navylawdog

W · « **Reply #43 on:** March 28, 2008, 04:33:14 PM »

SHOOTALL
Size(small) and carry comfort are big advantages for me. I have owned (2)- 38 snub nose's, (1) 4" 38's, (1) pocket .32auto's, (1)WW2 left over 45 auto (1) 6" 357mag and (1) 44mag SGH and all of these stayed home because they were to big to carry around. My 25 auto has been with me most of the time.

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #44 on:** March 28, 2008, 05:09:21 PM »

Quote from: Warren on March 28, 2008, 04:33:14 PM

SHOOTALL
Size(small) and carry comfort are big advantages for me. I have owned (2)- 38 snub nose's, (1) 4" 38's, (1) pocket .32auto's, (1)WW2 left over 45 auto (1) 6" 357mag and (1) 44mag SGH and all of these stayed home because they were to big to carry around. My 25 auto has been with me most of the time.

Good point. .25's and .22's have their place as "always" guns. Not optimum but small enough that you'll at least have something.
I have a Smith model 67 K-Frame that I carry sometimes but my NAA .22 Magnum revolver is always with me. I work for a company that thinks it's
a good idea to have a "no weapons on campus" policy so the .22 Mag mini revolver is just the ticket for carrying at work.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #45 on:** March 31, 2008, 03:55:02 AM »

I do believe ya'll but to be honest i carry a mod. 38 S&W airweight most all the time and have never felt it a burden . Of course Speedo ain't the brand i wear and in fact i choose what i wear to work with what i carry . Good Luck with the mouse guns , Hope you never face a threat bigger than a mouse !

rockbilly · « **Reply #46 on:** March 31, 2008, 05:14:14 AM »

The bottom line in selecting a caliber for concealed carry is, "What do you feel comfortable with, How much do you value your life and the safety of loved ones, will the caliber do what I want if I actually need it to eliminate a threat?"

When you have truthfully answered these questions, make your selection and practice, practice, practice. (I hope it is something larger than a .25)

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #47 on:** March 31, 2008, 12:54:06 PM »

You can poo poo mouse guns all you want if it makes you feel good but the reality is
thousands of people have successfully defended themselves with the lowly .22 and .25.
Everyone should carry the largest caliber possible but sometimes circumstances don't allow for it.
This is where mouseguns have their purpose.

Nobody is advocating mouseguns for primary carry but to say they are useless and ineffective is
simply not true. Here is a perfect example in recent news of how a mousegun can be effective:
http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa080214_lj_hawes.bfc57dff.html

80 year old defends himself from two knife wielding attackers with an NAA .22lr mini revolver.

rockbilly · « **Reply #48 on:** April 01, 2008, 07:11:15 AM »

Doublebass, this reminds me of a story.

Several (many) years ago I was sitting at the bar in the Belton Hotel in Dayton, Ohio enjoying a cold beer. In walks a very nice looking lady, she is dressed in her finery, jewelry and gems dangling from place imaginable. Obviously a lady of class she turned every head in the joint. There I sat, a poor country boy, barely dressed, no money, and surely not the most handsome man in the establishment. I sat and watched as several well dressed, apparently well educated successful men made their play on the lovely lady as she sat a table by herself. Agitate by all the attention, she moved to the bar and took a stool next to me, we struck up a conversation, and shortly we were headed out the door for dinner, and an evening on the town, her treat.

My point..........even when ill prepared for a situation one can get lucky. As stated in an earlier post the .22, or .25 are both capable of taking a life, or at least putting a hurt on someone. When the chips are down, one uses what they have at hand, in this case, had Picket been armed with a .45 it may have been a totally different story, a funeral instead of a trial., but then again, had the perps been dressed in heavy jackets there might not be any injuries.

When I look at insurance to cover the things I consider important to me I don't take the cheapest, smallest coverage available. I buy what I feel is best for my needs, that my friend is why the .45 is still on the market.

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #49 on:** April 01, 2008, 04:14:25 PM »

I agree that the best handgun calibers are the ones you want to carry and if you carry them then you've increased
your chances of survival. That does not mean if you defend yourself with a mousegun then you are simply "lucky".
It's more about the will to survive and shot placement. Like I said, there have been thousands of cases of people
successfully defending themselves with mouseguns. This isn't an accident or luck. They followed to first rule of a gunfight.

We had a case here in NH recently where a thug shot at a bouncer in a nightclub with a .45 ACP and missed. Luckily a bar patron
was armed with a lowly .32 ACP Kel-Tec mousegun and shot the thug and connected, saving the bouncers life.

As far as Picket goes, you can bring up all the hypotheticals you want but the bottom line is he stopped the threat, whether the perps are dead or not is irrelevant. In a self defense situation all you are looking to do is stop the threat. This was not luck either, Picket had the will to survive. This flies in the face of the normal internet BS that is propagated - "all a .22 will do is piss of your attacker even more".

Let's face it, all handguns are relatively weak compared to rifles and shotguns. There is no magic caliber in handguns so shot placement is critical regardless of caliber. Is a .45 better to carry than a .22? Certainly. Has thousands of lives been saved with small caliber handguns? Absolutely. Carry what you can shoot comfortably and is light enough that you will carry at all times. People come in all shapes and sizes so what they can carry and shoot comfortably varies by person. Telling them that what they are carrying is inadequate
based on what you can carry and shoot is wrong. Picket was an 80 year old man so a .22 was probably all he could handle but he made it work.

slim rem 7 · « **Reply #50 on:** April 01, 2008, 04:57:33 PM »

got my old worn out 25 titan out.. stil had some hornady protection rds in a boxx..
once again it showed me why i used it for a lotto yrs.. bigger than 22lr entry and exit.. that little gun does shoot hard.. nothing like my .380 kel-tec with corbon 90 grn tho.. but i have a hard time with the story about this 25 of mine ever going around the scalp on a head shot.. that story went around for a while.. don t much think the 25 hornady protection rd would do that.. could be wrong tho..

rockbilly · « **Reply #51 on:** April 01, 2008, 06:48:03 PM »

For every case you cite with positive results using a "mousegun," there are likely ten where it worked against the little gun.

I would never for a minute say they won't kill, or won't deter under some conditions, but there are many incidents where a perp shot with the "mousegun" was not affected at all. Ask any street cop and I am sure they will tell you the small calibers are not NORMALLY effective against a person high on drugs, they do not penetrate heavy clothing in many cases, and rarely does a hit render the expected results. I personally know officers that have shot bad guys with everything from a .38 to a .44 mag and have them run away never to be seen again. As for shot placement, generally in a gun fight shot placement is extremely hard to focus on, when you are running, trying to take cover, or remove yourself from a situation shot placement is almost nonexistent. Generally, it is a point and shoot situation until one is safely out of harms way, then they MAY concentrate on shot placement, but even then it is doubtful.

It is obvious from some of the post that they have never found themselves under fire, or in a situation where they had to use a firearm for survival. I speck from experience (two tours in Nam), even the best trained and most seasoned people find it difficult to even think about shot placement when under fire. Generally they shot and hope to hit something.

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #52 on:** April 02, 2008, 01:37:27 AM »

Quote

For every case you cite with positive results using a "mousegun," there are likely ten where it worked against the little gun.

Oh really, where do these statistics come from?

Quote

I personally know officers that have shot bad guys with everything from a .38 to a .44 mag and have them run away never to be seen again.

Thanks for backing up my point. Like I said, having a big bore is no guarantee, it only increases your odds. There was the case of the highway patrolman in the early 90's who connected 5 center of mass hits with his .357 on a perp only to have the perp shoot him with a .22. Perp survived, officer died even though he was wearing body armor.

There are way too many factors that go into a shooting to say that a big bore is good and a mouse gun is bad. There are plenty of cases where both have failed and both have been successful.

Ideally we'd all be carrying shotguns when the crap hits the fan but that is impractical for daily life. What we choose to carry is a compromise and nothing is ideal. Handguns are weak to begin with but we have to make the best of them.

BTW, thanks for your service in Vietnam and welcome home brother.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #53 on:** April 02, 2008, 02:25:36 AM »

The choice of a weapon for self defence should not be based on if a person dies at some point after being shot but if the person stops what ever he is doing to harm you RIGHT NOW !
Any thing less is useless .

rockbilly · « **Reply #54 on:** April 02, 2008, 12:36:11 PM »

Shootall, my point exactly. More people walk away after being hit by a bicycle that do after being hit by an F-350. Nuff said!

jeep08ham · « **Reply #55 on:** April 30, 2008, 04:29:56 AM »

For self defense, I would choose something larger than either of these. A few years ago a friend of mine shot a deer with a rifle during deer season. He thought he had killed it but when he got up to it, it kicked a bit so he shot it into the head twice with a .25. We loaded the deer in a pickup and hauled it to the shed to field dress it. When we got there, and stopped the pickup, the deer jumped up and out of the pickup. I had to shot it with my 270. Was funny as heck! Guess the .25 was not enough gun!