Author Topic: Which combo for elk??? or My Bullet Tests. :) (Read 1905 times)

KenSel · « **on:** February 21, 2008, 06:50:49 AM »

I have 3 rifles, one is a Browning A-Bolt 25WSSM and the load is 100grain TSX bullet @ 3200fps; the other rifle is a Marlin 1894 44Mag and the load is Winchester 240gr.JSP; the last rifle is a Remington 7600 30-06 and the load is 180grain Hornady SP @ 2700fps.

Which combo would be more adequate for elk, the 44 Mag at 50yards or the 25WSSM or 30-06 at 100yards? Let me know which you think is better and why you think it's the better choice.

thanks,
Ken

Please read further down to see what this is all about.

ms · « **Reply #1 on:** February 21, 2008, 07:47:12 AM »

The 25 don't look back.

KenSel · « **Reply #2 on:** February 21, 2008, 08:55:33 AM »

ms, why do you choose the 25?

I suppose I should rename this topic and fill you guys in. I'm conducting some tests (when I have time) of different bullets in different calibers. Right now my test media consists of:

1. 1/2 gallon jug of water
2. 1" thick magazine (dry) right now it is the new Midway catalog

Duct taped to a 1 gallon jug of water
3. 1 gallon jug of water
4. 1 gallon jug of water
5. 1 gallon jug of water
6. 1 gallon jug of water

If time permits, I'm going to test 30-06 w/ 180gr. Hornady soft point, and 130gr. TSX; 270WSM w/ 110gr. TSX; 25WSSM w/ 100gr. TSX; 44Mag w/ 240gr. XTP, 240gr. Oregon Trail lasercast, and I've already tested the 44Mag Winchester whitebox 240gr. JSP ammo. My purpose for the test was initially to see how the light weight TSX bullets compare to heavy weight traditional hunting bullets. After testing I'll report back with the results as well as pictures of the recovered bullets.

Oh, as for the 44Mag Win. 240gr. JSP- it penetrated the 1st jug, the magazine and caused the jug that the magazine was taped to to split, but it did not penetrate the jug that the magazine was taped to. I found the jacket of the bullet inside the jug with a nice mushroom shape, but the core was not found.

Ken

KenSel · « **Reply #3 on:** February 22, 2008, 06:03:28 AM »

I'm gonna load up some 30-06, 270WSM, and 25WSSM tonight and if the weather permits I'll hit the range tomorrow and do some more testing. Do any of you do any similar testing of your bullets for penetration, expansion, etc.?

Also is there a specific forum for bullet testing, etc.? I didn't see one, but I could have easily overlooked it.

Ken

Mikey · « **Reply #4 on:** February 22, 2008, 02:04:59 PM »

Ken - of the three cailbers and rifles you first mentioned I would choose the 30-06. I feel the 25 is too light for large critters like Elk - you could find yourself looking at a trophy 1,200 lb bull at 125 yds - would you really want to try that with a 25, or a 44 mag?

The 06 with a 180 gn slug, whether round nose or spire point, is to me the only choice.

One of our posters on one of the other rifle forums spoke to using the 06 to two and three times that range on Elk and Moose with no lost animals.

The 270 WSSM you mentioned would be my second choice but that's because I would normally choose the 30-06 over a 270 or even a hopped up 270. I would not choose the 130 gn slug for the 30-06, I would stick with the 180 and make sure you know where it hits at your preferred ranges, and beyond as well.

I am certain that if you continue with your tests you may well find the 06 to penetrate more with the 180 gn slug than any of the other calibers with lighter weight bullets, including the 06 with the 130 gn slug. JMTCW. Mikey.

KenSel · « **Reply #5 on:** February 22, 2008, 07:48:21 PM »

Mikey, your thinking sounds logic and that's the way most people think. However a friend of mine has done similar testing and the .25 cal was the winner. Think about this the 30-06 is a larger bullet which provides more resistance when penetrating causing it to slow down faster. Also the 30-06 bullet is a traditional jacketed lead core bullet compared to the TSX I'm using in the 25WSSM. Now I haven't done all of my testing yet so I don't know what my final results will be, but I do know if all thinks were equal; such as 30-06 180gr. SP bullet, 270WSM 150gr. SP, and 25WSSM 120gr. SP were being tested then the final results for deepest penetration and largest wound channel would be in that exact order, but when you change bullet construction it changes everything. Like my friend said "The old belief of sectional density only applies when the bullets are of the same construction. With the newly designed bullets such as the TSX, they can do as much or more with a low sectional density that traditional bullets of a much higher sectional density." That being said, I really need to get off the computer and get some loading done.

The wife and I are having a movie night so I gotta hurry and try to pump out at least the 30-06 180 grainers and the 25WSSM 100grainers since they are the highlight of my test.

I'll report back soon.

Ken

NONYA · « **Reply #6 on:** February 23, 2008, 02:15:57 AM »

30-06,no contest

beemanbeme · « **Reply #7 on:** February 23, 2008, 07:38:39 AM »

I'd have to go with the 30-06 and if you reload, I'd go with a 200gr bullet. Also a NP or Grand Slam if for no other reason, the peace of mind it will give you.
If not, then there's probably been quite a few tons of elk killed with Horn 180's.

Don Fischer · « **Reply #8 on:** February 23, 2008, 08:42:54 AM »

Interesting question. I'd say the 30-06 also but, the 25 might penetrate farther simply because of it's construction and velocity. But which might be a better elk bullet? I'd still vote 30-06. To level up the field, how about using a 180 TSX in the 30-06. And I'm not convinced that TSX's are really needed, just better constructed. The 30-06 with a 180gr bullet has been killing elk very dead for a long time. It's hard to make anything deader! I'm not sure dry paper is not loading the test in favor of the TSX either. Might be intresting to see the results if there was a soaked catalog in front, then maybe 4 jugs of water and a soaked catalog in the rear.

KenSel · « **Reply #9 on:** February 23, 2008, 09:19:11 AM »

Okay, I know that the 30-06 is a better elk caliber than the 25WSSM hands down, so let me ask the question in a different way: Which bullet do you think will penetrate the deepest, the 30-06 with 180gr. Hornady SP @2700fps or the 25WSSM with 100gr. TSX @3200fps? The reason I asked which you think is best for elk is because a 180gr. bullet in the 30-06 is a proven elk slayer. I want to see how the 100gr. TSX in the 25WSSM compares to the already proven 30-06 180gr. load.

I'm also testing the 44Mag with 240gr. JSP, XTP, and Oregon Trail cast bullets because that's what I'll be hunting with in Indiana and I'm interested in seeing how they do. I'm also testing the 30-06 with 130gr. TSX just to see how it stacks up to the 180gr. SP, and lastly I'm testing the 270WSM with 110gr. TSX@3550fps just because I think it will penetrate the deepest of all, but I may be wrong.

Don, I'm using dry magazine because it's just easier for me to work with right now. I used to get a stack of dry magazines 8" thick and put them in a vise and then duct tape the heck out of them but that design didn't really do anything but destroy bullets. I think the 1" dry is a good medium and it's more consistant than trying to tape a bunch of magazines together. I may try the same test using wet magazines after this test is done, just to see if it makes a difference.

Ken

beemanbeme · « **Reply #10 on:** February 24, 2008, 05:36:10 AM »

Uuuhhh, There's more to killing than velocity and penetration. Tissue damage and trauma count for something. And how long the bullet is in the animal factors in also. How far the bullet travels after it passes through the animal doesn't count for a whole lot.

KenSel · « **Reply #11 on:** February 24, 2008, 07:39:03 AM »

beeman, that is very true; but if a bullet doesn't penetrate enough to reach the vitals then it doesn't matter how big of a hole it makes. Earlier this season I shot a 120#(dressed weight) blacktail buck with my 30-06. The shot was at about 75 yards and I was using 180gr. Rem Corelokt SP. The bullet hit the onside shoulder and exploded, I found fragments of the bullet all over the hide on the onside, and one big chunk about .24" lodged on the offside shoulder. The result was a dead deer because that chunk managed to make it through the vitals leaving a very small hole. However the onside shoulder looked like it was hit with a grenade. If that would have been a larger tougher animal like an elk, then I'm not sure if the bullet would have made it to the vitals. I would have an elk with a big hole in it's shoulder and lot's of pieces of bullets that would be staying in the animal causing infection and ultimately a slow painful death.

Anyway, we finally have some decent weather today so I'm gonna try to hit the range and do some testing.

Ken

dukkillr · « **Reply #12 on:** February 24, 2008, 01:38:01 PM »

Might as well test .22lr and .22-250 and whatever else you can dig up. Your "test" is like testing your washer and dryer to see which one does a better job of removing grass stains. The 30-06 is the best round you listed for elk, and there's no reason to test that.

KenSel · « **Reply #13 on:** February 24, 2008, 05:49:27 PM »

dukkillr, with the proper bullet I agree that the 30-06 is the better choice. But, if all I had was my 30-06 with 180gr. SP loads and my 25WSSM with 100gr. TSX loads then I'd take the 25 and shoot an elk with confidence.

I didn't have access to the 100 yard range today so I did my testing at 50yds. First I tested the 30-06 with the 180gr. SP. It penetrated the 1st jug, the magazine, the second jug, and split the 3rd jug but did not exit. I found a few fragments of the jacket and core inside the 2nd and 3rd jug. After stiking the magazine the bullet did some impressive damage to the 2nd jug. Next I tested the 25WSSM with 100gr. TSX. It penetrated everything and the bullet was not recovered. After striking the magazine the bullet completely destroyed the 2nd jug and did substantial damage to the 3rd jug and left a .30" hole in the rest of the jugs. I was a little surprised that I wasn't able to recover the bullet so I put 3" of dry magazine behind the 1st jug and then placed my last 4 jugs behind it. This time the bullet made it to the 3rd jug and was recovered completely intact with a perfect mushroom. I didn't test anything else because I didn't have enough jugs or magazine left but I was more interested in comparing those 2 bullets anyway and the results speak for themselves.

I'll try to post pictures of the jugs behind the magazine and the recovered bullets as soon as I take pics.

Ken

beemanbeme · « **Reply #14 on:** February 24, 2008, 06:36:01 PM »

I am 70 years old. I don't know how many head of big game I've killed. Nor do I know how many tales I've heard of "bullet failures". But iff Mother Teresa were to tell me she shot a 120# deer in the shoulder with a 180gr Core Lokt bullet from a 30-06 and the bullet "exploded", I'd have to be there to see it. Not that I don't believe you.
I've never shot anything with a 180gr .308 bullet but I've shot a whole bunch with a 165gr Core lokt bullet. And a whole lot of stuff with Core Lokt bullets in other calibres. And I have never, not never sent a Core Lokt bullet after something that it didn't fetch it. They are good bullets. I don't rep for Remington or anything like that. I use NP's and Grand Slams and Hornadys and Speers and Woodleighs for hunting and Sierras at targets. If your bullet "exploded", it hit something before it ever got to the deer is what I figure.
Now that I've said all that, you go ahead on and shoot your little boutique bullet. It's your party.

roper · « **Reply #15 on:** February 24, 2008, 07:26:19 PM »

Ken, don't mind me saying this you can take elk with alot of different calibers and I think in selecting one you should consider range,velocity,and energy. I've never taken an elk with a 25cal so I cannot say how it would do and I'm sure your test will prove what you want them too. When I lived in Ca I shot afew blacktail with a 243 up to mag calibers and 90% of the time had one entrance and one exit hole and the same thing with the elk 35 or so elk I've taken and I've never lost one. You didn't mention where you plan on this combo hunt but here in Co if your hunt NF land you better bring a big enough cal so you don't have some elk running around some other hunter might get it. If your hunting on a private deal I'd ask the rancher what he uses or if it's guided hunt same thing ask the outfitter. Myself on the combo hunts I've always had maybe alittle more rifle on the deer side of the hunt to me your on the small side caliber for elk same way I don't hunt elk with a 6mm,25cal,6.5 or 270 bullet all my elk have be taken with a 7mm or 30cal bullet and I've heard all the arguments maybe if I was shooting one off the back porch. Well good luck

james · « **Reply #16 on:** February 25, 2008, 05:31:44 AM »

Another vote for the 30 06.

bubbadoyle · « **Reply #17 on:** February 25, 2008, 06:08:16 AM »

A 25 caliber is a fine for elk if the bullet is placed properly. My Grandpa killed many head of elk with a 257 Roberts and my Dad killed many with a 25-06. I also watched my Dad drop a bull moose right in its tracks with a 100 grain bullet placed right behind the shoulder at about 100 yards. I shoot a 257 weatherby and I would have no problems with shooting an elk with it. No matter how big of a bullet one is shooting shot placement is more important. I know this does not completely address the original queston but I think it applies to where the post has gone. I am not going to say what would be better only that a 25 caliber is plent capable of taking elk sized game.

KenSel · « **Reply #18 on:** February 25, 2008, 06:12:21 AM »

beeman, I shot that deer in an open field and the only thing the bullet hit was the deers shoulder, I've experienced the same thing on whitetails in WV that's why I switched to 180gr. Nosler Partitions for hunting in the thick mountain laurel. Don't care whether you believe me or not, I did this test for myself, I just posted it here so people who are interested and open minded could read the results. There are always gonna be people that don't believe it even if they see it and that's okay; use what works for you and what you are comfortable with. As far as the TSX being a boutique bullet, well I wouldn't say a boutique bullet, I would say hands down it's a much better bullet. Now if I were going on the elk hunt of a lifetime then I would take my 30-06 but it'd be loaded with the TSX, Partition, or A-Frame bullet, oh and I'd bring my 270WSM for a back-up rifle, but if all I had was the 25WSSM then I wouldn't hesitate to use it on any elk out to 200yds.

Ken

rickt300 · « **Reply #19 on:** March 02, 2008, 05:52:58 AM »

I also never had a corelokt of 165 gr. or heavier do anything but what it was supposed to. Not saying that some didn't lose some weight but every one of them either exited or was found under the hide on the far side and in a fine mushroom shape. Then again I don't shoot shoulders often and reccomend against it.

NONYA · « **Reply #20 on:** March 02, 2008, 06:22:19 AM »

Neolithic man killed them with spears,maybe we should ignore all the superior weapons available to us and go back to stone implements....if you want the most superior weapon for the job dont use nostalgia as a guide,firearms ballsitics have improved drasticly since the time of our grandfathers,enjoy it! Choose whatever pleases you but dont try to bs me by telling me a 25-06 is just as adequate as a 30-06 or any of the mag calibers,we all know there are superior elk rounds.

nomosendero · « **Reply #21 on:** April 07, 2008, 03:05:58 PM »

Quote from: dukkillr on February 24, 2008, 01:38:01 PM

Might as well test .22lr and .22-250 and whatever else you can dig up. Your "test" is like testing your washer and dryer to see which one does a better job of removing grass stains. The 30-06 is the best round you listed for elk, and there's no reason to test that.

I agree & it should be a given.

yooper77 · « **Reply #22 on:** May 12, 2008, 05:28:34 AM »

If I had to choose the 25 WSSM it would be with a 115 or 120 grain Nosler Partition, not a Barnes bullet. I witnessed an old Barnes 100 grain XP bullet fail to open on an Antelope out of a 25-06 Remington cartridge. After that I don't trust Barnes bullets and the Nosler Partition have never failed to produce.

Now for the Elk cartridge between the 30-06 Springfield cartridge and the 25 WSSM. I would choose the 30-06 Springfield with 180 grain Nosler partitions using IMR-4831.

I don't care for the super short cases; the heavy bullets have to be inserted too far. Most of them will die off after the hype.

223 Winchester Super Short Magnum, I have the 223 Remington & 22-250 Remington cartridges instead.

243 Winchester Super Short Magnum, I have a 243 Winchester cartridge instead.

25 Winchester Super Short Magnum, I have a 25-06 Remington cartridge or my buddies & 257 Weatherby Magnum instead.

270 Winchester Short Magnum, I have a 270 Winchester cartridge instead.

7mm Winchester Short Magnum, I have a 7MM-08 Remington and 7MM Mauser Ackley Improved cartridges instead.

300 Winchester Short Magnum & 300 Remington Short Action Ultra Magnum, I have a 30-06 Ackley Improved Springfield & 30-06 Springfield cartridges instead.

yooper77

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #23 on:** May 12, 2008, 05:58:22 AM »

I don't think you are comparing apples to apples. If you are going to use the TSX bullets in the 25 or 27 caliber, you have to use them in the 30-06, and not a 180 grain, but the 165 because it would travel faster and penetrate deeper. Check out the link in the African forum using Barnes TSX in 165 gr 30-06.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,121982.0.html