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Offline Ray Cover

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Some questions about handgun optics in general
« on: May 12, 2008, 03:21:17 PM »
I am a life long handgun shooter and handgun hunter but I never used a scope on a handgun.  I like long range rifles and super accurate rimfire rifles and have used scopes on both but not on my handguns.  Therefore I really know very little about handgun scopes.

Two things have caused me to consider a scope on my contender barrels.
1. I have the bug to shoot farther distances and do more varmint type hunting with my contender.
2. I turn 41 in a month and the last time I was at the range I had to come to the realization that my sight picture was not as clear as it used to be.
    I raised my gun sighted down range and .......... oh crap ........ :'( >:(

SO what I would like to do is get you guys to help with my education.  Give me the scoop on the following categories. I probably won't buy Tasco, Simmons, Bushnell or similar low quality scopes.  I like better quality scopes and $250-$400 would probably be the price range I would consider.  Occasionally, if I had a real tack driving barrel, I may spend more for a top of the line scope.

RIMFIRE

1. What characteristics do I need to look for in a handgun scope for match grade rimfire action? 
2. What magnification ranges for 50 to 100 yd target shooting?
3. What magnification ranges for hunting tree rats?
4. What scopes would you recommend that have these characteristics.

CENTER FIRE

1. What characteristics do I need to look for in a target/varmint scope.
2. What magnification ranges for 100yd to 200yd distances?  Over 200yd?
3. What Scopes would you recommend?

Any help you all give will be appreciated. 

Thanks,

Ray
   

 o

Offline MePlat

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Re: Some questions about handgun optics in general
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2008, 03:43:44 PM »
Why would you consider a Bushnell 3200 Elite a low quality scope?
I sure would like to hear the reasons behind it.
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Offline Ray Cover

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Re: Some questions about handgun optics in general
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2008, 04:08:49 PM »
As a general rule Bushnells products don't tend to have as clear optics as better brands. At least the Bushnells that I have tried have not and reviews that I have read about the 3200 elite make the same comments about the elite series' glass. 

Maybe you have a great one and I am glad you are happy with it.  I'm just looking for a better quality scope with good clear optics.

JMHO,

Ray 

Offline MePlat

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Re: Some questions about handgun optics in general
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2008, 04:29:45 PM »
I own and shoot Leupolds,  Simmons gold medal, Burris and have one old Redfield.  You may be right if one were just scrutinizing the devil out of the optics but alot of the times one will pay 30 to 40 percent more for maybe 10 or 15 percent more quality.
If that floats ones boat I say go for it but it will not make you a better shot.
I personally can't tell much difference between the Leupold, Bushnell ,or the Burris  not enough to justify the added cost.  Maybe you can. 
Go to a sporting goods dealer that will let you take each scope outside and compare  them side by side before you make a decision.
Remember one isn't buying a scope to read the Sunday newspaper with at 300 yards.
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Offline Ray Cover

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Re: Some questions about handgun optics in general
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2008, 04:42:52 PM »
I own and shoot Leupolds,  Simmons gold medal, Burris and have one old Redfield.  You may be right if one were just scrutinizing the devil out of the optics but alot of the times one will pay 30 to 40 percent more for maybe 10 or 15 percent more quality.
If that floats ones boat I say go for it but it will not make you a better shot.
I personally can't tell much difference between the Leupold, Bushnell ,or the Burris  not enough to justify the added cost.  Maybe you can. 
Go to a sporting goods dealer that will let you take each scope outside and compare  them side by side before you make a decision.
Remember one isn't buying a scope to read the Sunday newspaper with at 300 yards.

I disagree with your premise here.  The better you can see through the scope (or in other words the more accurate and clear the sight picture through your scope) the more reliable the shot will be.  That alone will not make one a better shot but it is one piece of the puzzle.  The better you can see the better you can shoot - all other variables being equal.

But I dont' want to debate the virtues of Bushnell scopes.

I need info on handgun scopes from guys who use them.
I am sure that using a hand gun scope with a long eye relief must be different than using a rifle scope.  What I need to know is what those differences are and do those differences affect what I need to look for in a handgun scope?

Ray

 

Offline MePlat

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Re: Some questions about handgun optics in general
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2008, 04:48:20 PM »
Also  an addition to the above.  I had the opportunity to look through a high dollar and I mean a high dollar Leupold that was on a 22 LR benchrest 50/50 rifle a guy had at the local range and could not detect any better quality than many of the lower priced scopes I looked through.   I also looked through a high dollar Zeiss a guy had on a rifle at the same range too one day and I be darned if I would spend that kind of money on a Zeiss period.  Of course he is one of the types that holds court at the range and one has to wave and holler just to get him quite enough to say "I'm going to fire put your plugs in."
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Offline MePlat

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Re: Some questions about handgun optics in general
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2008, 04:53:38 PM »
If you will reread my second post I recommended to see if a dealer will let you take them outside to compare them.  Everyones eyes are different and one that is as clear as a bell to you may not be to someone else.
I am not debating scopes just trying to give some friendly advice that I wish I could of had years ago when I was starting out with scope.
And by the way I do use handgun scope and will be using 2 different brands tomorrow if all is well.
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Offline Keith L

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Re: Some questions about handgun optics in general
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2008, 09:08:17 PM »
In handgun scopes I have mainly Burris scopes with a couple of TC scopes and one old Tasco Pro Class.  I haven't used a Nikon or a Leupold.  I like the Burris scopes because the field of view is a little larger with them, and for me I need all the help I can get finding critters in a  handgun scope.  It has gotten better the more I shoot, but I know I have missed shots because I haven't been able to get on target quickly.  I have a Bushnell 3200 rifle scope that is as good as most scopes.  The quality in the Elite series seems quite good.  My guess is that the same goes for handgun scopes as well.

My rimfire pistols that wear optics all have red dots on them, so I can't help there.

Good luck.
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Re: Some questions about handgun optics in general
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2008, 09:53:27 PM »
Not that I adhere to it at all times but (and someone will take issue with this I'm sure)... "buy the best Leupold you can" and be done with it.  To prevent the flames from scorching my combat boots I'll add this...  Other scopes are often just as good or better.  Burris, Bushnell, Nikon, Zeiss, S&B, Swarovski, Kahles, Doctor and I'm sure many others can fill the bill though.  Your price range will dictate... You may want that extra 10 percent, you may not give a tinkers darn about it.  You may be satisfied with just knowing the deer or squirrel is there or you may want to count it's whiskers.  Your desires will adjust your price range.  Good luck on the decision... let us know how it works out.  Personally I like better glass... I can't afford top of the line but have hunted with it.  I have killed plenty of deer with a Tasco as well.  I LIKE Swarovski but can't afford it right now.  I'll stick with the under $500 stuff for now.


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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Some questions about handgun optics in general
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2008, 01:31:56 AM »
There is no "perfect" scope and no reason why the same scope should be most correct for all. Optics all optics are compromises made by the manufacturer to fit a certain segment of the buying public. What those compromises are determine how right they are for each of us based on what we individually think is most important to us.

I've owned a huge number of handgun scopes and tried out a lot more owned by other folks at the range so I have a pretty good feel for most of what's out there as they apply to me and my personal prejudices and preferences.

In general Leupold quality is about as good as it gets but the few 2.5-8 handgun scopes I've looked thru were the sorriest excuse for a handgun scope I've run across and if all are like the two or three I've seen I'd not have one for free. Their 2x and 4X fixed powers on the other hand have superb optics and are clear and reasonably bright altho the 2X leaves a LOT to be desired in really low light situations. I love the wide FOV of the 2X and have used it extensively far more so than the 4X as the 4X has a very tiny FOV and for a hunting scope FOV is very important to me as I hunt mostly in thick cover and distances are short and game is not always standing still posing for the shot.

Bushnell handgun scopes are absolute top notch in my experience and I can really tell no difference in the optical or mechanical properties between the Trophy and Elite scopes. They are the most clear and bright handgun scopes I've owned or used. I can see bullet holes with them on targets farther away than any other brand of scope I've ever put on a handgun. Their FOV is a bit on the narrow side to suit me so I have to compromise on a very important feature to me to use them. BUT I like them enough that I do often make that compromise to get the high quality optics and they are as tough mechanically as there is out there and yeah I've used and abused them so that's experience speaking.

Burris scopes mostly confound me. I love the wide FOV of their 2-7 at the lower power range and the extra magnification at the upper end when needed. But dang it they just are not as bright or clear as the Bushnell or Leupold and are heavier scopes and much larger in physical size. They also have the very annoying feature of floating trash in way too high a percentage of them. Customer service is iffy at best at times being great and at other times being down right horrible. Over all I like them and have used a lot of them but realize their short comings and live with them.

I've not used a Weaver handgun scope but the few rifle scopes of newer manufacture I've had I have not been happy with. Probably I should try the handgun scopes to see how they work but I have not and I've not run across anyone on a range with one to look thru even.

Both Nikon and Pentax I've seen on the range and looked thru but never owned. In both cases to me it was like looking thru the wrong end of a Leupold or Bushnell scope. They were bright and clear enough but it actually seemed they had a negative magnification and made the image appear smaller not larger. Weird but each one I've looked thru on someone else's handgun had this feature. I'd never ever buy one sight unseen because of that but if I were able to hold it in hand and found it lacked that problem then I'd not hesitate to own one I guess as they do seem bright and clear enough. I have seen folks with mechanical problems with them but that might be more the fault of the shooter than the scope.

Simmons I just do not trust. I've owned few but looked thru many on the range. I hate them and don't trust them and will never ever use one on my own guns. I might be missing something good with that prejudice as many folks seem to looking on them with favor. The few I've had have been junk whether bought new or used so I've lost all confidence in them.

Swift I've just never fully trusted and have no real basis for that distrust as I've never owned one and have seen darn few in use. Many seem to hold them in high regard so maybe I'm missing out on something with them.

More scopes are ruined by improper mounting than anything else. Folks who complain of their scopes being destroyed by recoil were most likely actually destroyed by their poor efforts at mounting them. This is even more important on heavy recoil handguns than on rifles but it applies equally to both. If you put those "almost standard" ring marks on your scope you mounted it incorrectly and likely have done at least some internal damage and certainly set it up for failure.

Lap or ream those rings or use Burris Signature rings when mounting your scopes and just about any brand you buy will have a long life and serve you well. Mount them incorrectly and it doesn't matter what brand is on the side it's gonna fail early.

My personal favorites and what you'll see in use on my guns most often if I use a handgun scope (which I do less and less these days) are the Leupold 2X and 4X, Bushnell Trophy or Elite 2-6 and their 2X which doesn't suffer from the low light problems of the 2X Leupold and the Burris 2-7. If you see a scope on a handgun of mine it will be one of those.


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Offline CBM

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Re: Some questions about handgun optics in general
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2008, 02:25:50 AM »
I have very little experience with handgun hunting or handgun scopes but I can tell you what I have seen. I purchased a Encore pistol a few months ago and bought a Bushnell 3200 2-6x32 FF reticle because they were on sale so cheap. This is my first hunting pistol and scope.

I own 3 rifles ...........one has a Zeiss Diavari VM/V 3-9X42 , one has a Swarovski PV 3-12 X50, and my son's .223 has a Nikon Monarch 6x42 !! I have had some Tasco's and Burris in the past !

The handgun scope takes some getting used to. They have a much smaller FOV compared to a rifle scope and in low light.........my handgun scope pails in comparison to any of my rifle scopes ! Also "blackout" or whatever ......from not having your head in the right position is much more of a problem with a pistol scope than a rifle scope !!

 In good light my scope is excellent and the only complaint I have is the thickness of the firefly crosshairs ! And I wish it were brighter in low light..........but I realize there's just no way for one to compare with bigger rifle scopes !!

I have been curious whether the Leuplod 2-8x32 was any brighter in low light........but it doesn't sound like it from the above post !!

Offline Ray Cover

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Re: Some questions about handgun optics in general
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2008, 02:51:24 AM »
thanks for the input fellas. 8)

So far we have:

1.Field of view and getting on target.  That makes sense to me.  I can see where having the scope farther away from your eye would cause a larger issue with FOV.

2. Weight and physical size also makes sense.

3. Clarity is a big issue for me so will include it in the list.

What about paralax?  What affect does the longer eye relief have on paralax if any?  Does a good handgun scope need to have paralax adjustment like a rifle scope does?

Ray


   

Offline Ken ONeill

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Re: Some questions about handgun optics in general
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2008, 03:07:14 AM »
My handgun scope experience goes back to 1978. I have used Leupold, Burris, Bushnell, Weaver, Redfield, and scopes marketed by T/C, as well as several red dots, mostly the Ultra Dot. I have a few comments.
I prefer the Leupold 4X for squirrel hunting. However, depending upon the woods you hunt and your marksmanship skills, the 2X may be adequate or even superior for you.
You don't say what your targets are at 200 yds. or more. If they are prairie dogs, or even groundhogs, I recommend the Burris 3-12X with the Ballistic Plex reticle. Few can use more than 9X, or perhaps 10X, and because of eye relief limitations, they work best on center- grip XP's but are certainly quite useable on T/C's also, with slight elbow bending. I use them on a .223 XP, and an SSK .225 Win. Contender, to my satisfaction.
If your centerfire targets are big game, with only occasional small targets, I have found both the Burris 2-7X, and Bushnell 3200 2-6X to be very satisfactory. I have 4 or 5 of the Burris 2-7's and 8 2-6X 3200's in service. My favorite, by a wide margin is the Bushnell 3200. More about this in a minute.
If your big game hunting is limited to deer, hogs, black bear etc., perhaps some exotics, with shots mostly from 50 to 150 yards, my recommendation once again is the Leupold 4X. If the likely range is 25 to 100 yds. or so, I'd usually go with a 2X Leupold.
Others have and will mention the Leupold 2-8X. I have tried this scope on friends' handguns, but have never bought one, because they are large, heavy, and offer an inferior field of view in my opinion, because although the bell is large, the goofy black ring inside restricts the field of view. Others will disagree, but that's my opinion. I don't want one.
You have mentioned rimfire target shooting at 50 and 100 yards. This requires a change in sight settings, and brings me to what I consider an important consideration when selecting target scopes: Ease of adjustment and accuracy of repeatability. Some of my Leupold 4X's and even a few of the 2X's were retro-fitted with target elevation turrets some years ago. They are excellent in every way, but tall and perhaps ungainly for some hunting uses. The Burris adjustments are frequently a bit indistinct and not well suited to frequent changes (on a separate note, do NOT get a goofy Posi-Lock, which can change adjustment when tightened). Once the standard Burris is zeroed, it's fine.
The newer Leupold 2X and 4X scopes made in the last couple of years offer repeatable adjustments, rather than the earlier friction adjustments. However, the easiest and best adjustments in my opinion are those found on the Bushnells. Many, many, of these are in use in the "any sight" categories of Silhouette competitions, to the satisfaction of their shooters. Mine have been excellent.
Another attribute to consider is eye relief range, and consistency between powers, on the variable scopes. Like it or not, the Bushnell 3200 is superior. Period.
In summary, I have been a Leupold 4X and 2X proponent for handguns. They're shorter, lighter, tougher, and have an excellent warranty. I'm using about 10 or more of each, some for more than 20 years.  So far, ( 8 scopes, 7 years on several ) my choice on the variables, with the exceptions noted above, is the Bushnell 3200 2-6X. There is one caveat: I don't know what to expect of Bushnell's Warranty service, if I ever need it. It may be fine, but I recently had occasion to return an inexpensive  pair of Bushnell binoculars for repair or replacement. They denied liability. I felt they should have honored their warranty and feel they violated it. It has left an unsatisfactory taste in my mouth.

Offline Roger_Dailey

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Re: Some questions about handgun optics in general
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2008, 02:46:16 AM »
On light recoil pieces (rimfire, Hornet, 223); I use a regular rifle scope.  I find many handgun scopes to have too long an eye relief for field use.  Handgun scopes I've used seem to be set for "arms length" shooting.  In the field, I'm very seldom at arms length.  The rifle scopes give a much better field of view.  I've even used rifle scopes on medium recoiling pieces (44 mag, 35 Remington).  However, after aligning, I push the scope away for a little more "eye clearance".  As long as the blackout on the edge is kept even all around (not real critical), accuracy is fine.    If you already have a spare rifle scope, mount it up and try it.
YMMV

Offline Catfish

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Re: Some questions about handgun optics in general
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2008, 05:42:32 AM »
I put my first scope on a handgun in 1968. It was a High Standard Duromatic and I took alot of game with that gun. I have own most every brand of scope on the market, but now am like No Guns, I only buy Leupold. I owned 5 Burris scopes and 4 out of the 5 were junk, I mean that they did not work. I have friends that swear by them, but my luck has been all bad with them. I don`t know what GB didn`t like about the 2 1/2 x 8 Leupold's, I have 2 of them and really like them, but I use them on gun that will only be shot from a rest. For the revolvers that I use for deer hunting I prefer a 2X. It gives me a point of aim that is accurate enough beyond the max. range of a revolver on deer. I recommend that you try to shoot a handgun with a scope on it before you buy one. The field of view is very small compaired to a rifle scope. Every post is one mans opinion and I can see from what has been posted so people have alot more experance than others, but you won`t know untill you play with a scoped handgun for yourself.

Offline CBM

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Re: Some questions about handgun optics in general
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2008, 11:35:57 AM »
Well after this thread and trying for a while to find good info. about scope reviews on Leupolds vs. Bushnells................and well........a couple/few beers !! I said what the heck and ordered a Leupold 2-8X32 . So when the Leupold get's here .....I will compare them side by side myself and post my unbiased-uneducated- layman's view of what I think between the Leupold vs. Elite 3200 2x6 Firefly !!!

While I was at it............I ordered a grip and forend in Forrest Camo laminate from Ole Georgia Jim !! The wife's gonna have a stroke !!!!LOL

Offline hunterspistol

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Re: Some questions about handgun optics in general
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2008, 04:20:00 PM »
   I'm shooting a Burris on my 7mmTCU barrel, and here's what I've learned. Just like Graybead said, mounting the scope without enough care is the worst enemy. I use a scope lapping kit from Wheeler Engineering to mount my scopes. The one in the pic is a 3-12X, and that's some serious magnification. At 200 yards, I can use it for a spotting scope. I don't recommend using anything over a 10 power scope, really. I end up turning it down some. Another consideration is eye relief, the higher the power, the closer to your eye it gets when you pull the trigger.

I have actually had a good Simmons expedition pistol scope with the granite finish, so I'm just going to say that if Simmons says Whitetail Expedition is good, you won't hear me argue. I shot a .357 Magnum with it.

 I shoot rifle and pistol scopes both. I use Leupold, Burris, Weaver, and TC. For 200 yards, I'd say use anything up to 10 power, same for 100 meters.
My 100 meter pistols use Leupold VX-II riflescopes, I have one Weaver V16 on the .22lr but, I have to turn it down to shoot anyway( I think its too finicky for what I'm doing with it). As far as price goes, you aren't necessarily taking into consideration that the AO (adjustable objective)front lens is going to cost more, and that's exactly what you need to shoot silhouette sometimes.
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Offline GRIMJIM

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Re: Some questions about handgun optics in general
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2008, 08:04:52 AM »
If you're unfamiliar with handguns with a scope, before you go out hunting with it I would suggest a lot of pracrice getting on target with it. I had a huge problem with this with my dan wesson 44 mag w/ simmons 3-9 (if I remember right) scope. So what I did was sit on the couch in my living room and put my eye on something across the street, a tree or usually a tire on a parked car. Then raise the pistol up and put the scope in your line of sight without moving your head. Try to get it to be second nature, it helped me a lot.

I bought the pistol as kind of a package with the simmons on it already. I haven't had any problems with it but you can spend your money better I think. The one thing I do like about it is it has a large objective lense.

I used mine for deer hunting and almost always kept it turned all the way down.

For tree rats I would use a 2x I don't think you need any more magnification than that. If you're only getting one scope for rimfire and want it to do both though you may want to go with a 4x.
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Offline Rog

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Re: Some questions about handgun optics in general
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2008, 09:10:03 AM »
I just picked up a Leupold 2.5x-8 today.  I couldn't pass it up ($$300.00).

I have stated on more than one occasion on this website, that I think that the Burris 2x-7x is the best all around scope available for most general hunting.

I have owned a Bushnell 2x-6x Trophy, and was never impressed with it.  I don't see how anyone can say it is the equal of the Leupold or the Burris.  Ain't no comparison.  (maybe my eyes are better than others, I don't know....lol)  Every Bushnell Trophy 2x-6x scope I looked through has some distortion at the outer edges of the view.  None of the Burris or Leupold scopes I've owned or viewed have had that.  I don't care what scope you favor, I just don't like that in my scopes.  Now, when you factor in the cost of the scope, the Bushnell gets more attractive....

Based on my own experiences having owned several brands of scopes, I'd say that the Burris 2x-7x is the virtual equal of the Leupold 2.5x-8x in terms of optical quality, both in "normal light" and "low light" conditions.  That is my opinion based on personal observations of the two scopes side by side during several days of viewing under differing conditions.

I also have had less than good experiences with Bushnell's customer service (rifle scope a few years back).

As far as adjustable objectives on handgun scopes, you would want them on a pistol scope for the same reason you'd want them on a rifle scope.


Regards,

Rog


Offline irold

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Re: Some questions about handgun optics in general
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2008, 02:45:57 PM »
Short and to the point.,  I had two scopes both 2X , one a Leo and the other a Burris,   I had need for another scope for a 12 " 44 , Nachez had a big sale on their Weaver scopes.  I ended up with a 2X Weaver.  Now with all three laying on the bench....the brightest, clearest of the three was the Weaver ,  The Leo seems to have a big  "black out " area........I really have to be in the exact spot to get a view.  The Burris just doesn't seem to be as bright as either the Weaver or the Leo.   We'll see how it holds up.   BTW , the Leo was on my 460 Encore at the time , it does hold up to a pounding.................I also had a Bushnell Trophy 2-6 on that same barrel , after probably 500 or so rounds it was still holding together , and still doing its job. I eventually put that scope on a 22lr 14' barrel that I use for squirrels, I like a little more power for my squirrel guns.     Good Luck

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Some questions about handgun optics in general
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2008, 02:59:04 AM »
Your best bet is to do as MePlat said, and take all the scopes out and try them out. I have the following scopes and I find that they are all on the same playing field.
Bushnell Trophy, Bushnell elite, Leupold 2X and Leupold 4 X and Leupold 2X8. The Leupold 2X8 is in my opinion one of the best handgun scopes out there, but the others come in a close second.

Find which scope best fits your needs and go with it.

But what every you do, do not put Bushnell handgun scopes on the same level as  Tasco, Simmons. There is a big difference.
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Re: Some questions about handgun optics in general
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2008, 03:07:27 PM »
Okay, here's my take on your questions.

Rimfire Match Grade
Consider 2 scopes, one with high magnification for a clear precise target picture and a second varible scope ie Burris 2-7x for treerat sniping use a Weaver style base and rings on each then just change scopes as your intended targets change.  For target work I currently using a Weaver T36 target scope with fine crosshairs and 1/8" dot works great for me.  Then for hunting I would just change the scope for a good varible scope of lower magnification.

Here's my target rig


Centerfire

Look at the offerings from Nikon, not sure of your intended caliber but a lot of us are using rifle scopes on our centerfire guns, then again if going afrer big game switch to a varible ie Burris Bushnell, Leupold, Nikon pistol scopes. The low power varibles will allow quick viewing of the game without the critical eye relief problems associated with high X's of a rifle scope.

Here's one of my centerfires with a Nikon 6-16x Buckmaster scope


These work for me

docand 8)