Downsizing bullets

[TommyD]

Hi Veral,

I have a lovely .454 260 grain WFNGC mold that gives me excellent accuracy in my Ruger Super Redhawk with the .454 diameter.

My difficulty is that when I try those bullets in my Freedom Arms 45 colt cylinder they will not load all the way down into the chambers.

When I try to resize it to .542 in my RCBS lubrasizer, the lead seems to "smear" up towards he nose of the bullet and won't chamber if I crimp in the crimping groove. Actually, I believe that the Freedom Arms chambers are tight enough to require a .451 diam bullet. Even if I purchase a .451 sizing die, the "smear" effect may make it ineffective.

I see two alternatives: order a new mold with the .451 diameter, or get a new lubrasizer that pushes the bullets through nose first. I have seen that you recommend the Star (which is now built by Magma Engineering). I am hoping that the nose first resizer will automatically center the bullet and if there is some "smear" it will be pushed to the rear of the bullet and not interfere with chambering.

How far down can you effectively resize bullets using this machine? Can I go down from .454 (as it comes out of the mold) in one step to .451? Will the lead smear like it does in my RCBS?

How does the Star do with gas checked bullets? At $250 it is a bit of an investment.

Or do I need to get a new mold just for my one Freedom arms revolver?

What do you recommend?

Tom

[Veral]

  The problem is probably actually caused by the bullet not being pushed into the sizer deep enough to size all the way.  Try the bullet base to see if it is small enough to slip fit the FA cylinder throats.  If it is, push the bullets into the sizer nose first about half way, reverse them and size full length.  You may have to run all of a lot nose first with no pressure on the lube screw, to prevent getting lube in the crimp groove or on the nose. 

  If the base won't slip into the cylinder throats, you'll need another sizer to get them small enough. 

[Nrut]

Hello TommyD..
Run your bullet thru your regular lubra-sizer die to lube and gas check....Then run your bullet thru a LEE .451 push thru sizing die...
I have very good luck sizing .385" 38-55 boolits down to .368" for my 9.3X62 and the same boolit down to .360" for my .35 Whelen, but I lube and gas check them first in a .382" lubrasizer die...You will lose a very little if any lube by just sizing down to .451...you may get a bit of spring back if you are using hard cast...then you would have to order a .450" custom die from Lee or if you want faster, cheaper, and good quality order one from BuckShot over at the Castboolit website...
I am betting your groove dia. on your Freedom Arms 45 Colt (model 97?) is the same as my Casull 83 which is .454 with .451" cyl exits...if so that sucks!
Have Fun and Good Luck 

[TommyD]

Hi Nrut,

That sounds like a very good solution. the lee kit in inexpensive and worth a try.

Do you know if it will work with an RCBS rock chucker? It says it will fit standard threads for the die, but will it fit the RCBS ram?

Tom

[Nrut]

Yes.. the Lee sizers fit all standard type reloading presses...Be sure to  thread the die down far enough so the the push rod pushes the bullet thru the tight area in the die....The push rod just clips in where your shell holder would normally go....I have a RCBS JR3  press which is smaller than a Rock Chucker  and the Lee sizer works fine in that... 

[crash87]

TommyD/Nrut, When I first read the post Nruts suggestion came to mind immediately. When ever possible, i.e. a sizer of appropriate size is available, I size my water-dropped bullets , but with the Lee first, giving them a little spritz of WD40. Then I put them through the RCBS sizer, basically just for the lube. Of course I'm not sizing them down as much as you. What it does is save wear and tear on my sizer. It takes a good push to take a water-dropped 400gr of 320gr lfngc .45 cal bullet through a sizer. Ironically it broke first with sizing and lubing a .44 250lfngc, air cooled WW. That is when I thought up the idea of the LEE sizers. The RCBS has flaws, one is the handle yoke. I'm on my 2nd, but that is after it broke once, I then welded it back up with reinforcement, that lasted a while longer, then broke too. If I had to do it over again the Star would be the one I'd purchace. CRASH87

[TommyD]

Hi Crash87,

The base is too big to fit through the cylinder, so I won't be able to use Veral's suggestion of nose first in the RCBS.

I ordered the Lee dies from Midwayusa. Probably have them next week. Inexpensive and worth a try.

Putting them throught the Lee first makes sense, but does the WD40 cause any problems with the lube (I like Veral's soft blue) sticking to the lube groove in the bullet?

Also, should I use the lee to seat the gas check, or do it as part of the second stage with the RCBS lubra sizer?

Of course, if I get too frustrated by the multiple extra steps, I may just break down and buy a smaller diameter mold from Veral.  Maybe a 4 cavity with the nice WFN. Despite the inconvenience of fitting it to the FA cylinder (no problems in my Ruger) I do like that nice fat wide meplat. Reminds me of Thor's hammer.



Tom

[crash87]

No, WD40 does not interfere with the lube sticking, I use blue soft also. As per Verals instruction, You lightly fog the bullets getting a little on the leading edge. You don't need to get them wet, just a fog will do. Or, you can run a lubed bullet back thru about every 5 or so, just to get a little lube in the die. I seat the checks when running them thru the LEE first. I then lube them in the RCBS, but I have my sizer plug machined, again, as per Veral's instruction, and give them a good bump to square up the bases. This is where, I think, I've got my problem with the handle yoke breaking. If your not familiar with the machining of the plug, Veral has a write up on it and sends it out with his catalog, or at least He did. Yes I agree with you about the multiple steps, but for now, with the equipment I have and its prone to breaking I feel its a necessity. But like I said I use it only with the water-dropped bullets to save wear & tear. Just the other day I sized and lubed 500 or so .358 180gr. fn and didn't have to resort to the above method. Those 500 will get shot up pretty fast where as The .45 caliber bullets for the 45 Colt and 45/70 are more specialized, for hunting and are not necessarily plinking bullets. For plinking in the Colt/Ruger I use 250gr.lfn fb and soon to have a LBTK from Veral. A more sedate and fun load to shoot, as opposed to a 320gr @ 1250. Take those up to 1500 in a 5 shot and you'll see why those are specialized bullets.

[Veral]

  When sizing bullets more than one time to get them down to size, especially if sizing more than maybe .003 inch, apply the lube in the grooves first and they will not close up.  Occasionally I correspond with shooters who size 45 rifle bullets down to 452.  For this kind of drastic sizing, filling the grooves with lube first keeps the lube grooves in place, held there by hydraulic pressure.

[Nrut]

TommyD
1--Just do like you normally do and that is lube and size your bullet in your lubrasizer...
2--THEN run it through your Lee push-thru sizer in your RCBS Rock Chucker...
There is no reason as you will find out to spray your lubed bullet with WD-40 to run it thru your LEE push-thru if you lube it first...

As near as I can tell from crash87 posts is that his "lubrasizer" die is to small for his bullet and he runs them through a LEE push-thru first so he won't break the handle on his RCBS lubrasizer (again).......
crash87...I have a Star lubrasizer and I don't size down grossly over sized bullets with it as the walls of their sizing are not as thick as the LEE push-thru dies and the Star handle won't take the abuse anyway... 

[TommyD]

Hi guys, thanks for all the advice. The Lee die is due to arrive in the next day or so. Here is my plan:

1. Size and lube bullets with the .454 die in my RCBS. Already done.

They are too tight to push through the FA cylinder and my calipers measure them to be .455 in diam. In don't know if this is due to spring back of the water dropped wheel weights, an over size die, or inaccurate calipers. Using Hornady XTP bullets (nominally .452) as a standard, I measure them to be .4525.

2. use the Lee .452 and push the already sized and lubed bullets through.

3. check cylinder fit. If OK, then test for accuracy in my next trip to the range.

4. if too tight, the try the Lee .451.

5. If this doesn't work, or I get sick of it, then buy smaller molds from Veral. 


Tom

[Veral]

 Your plan is a good one, but I really don't want you to buy another mold because bullets from the one you have are too large.  I'm not going back up though all this long post to learn the particulars of this mold, but I guarantee diameter to not more than .0015 larger than ordered, and not less than ordered.  Normally I hold them around .0005 to .001 over the requested size, so there is a little to size to insure a precision fit.  This means, the correct sizer diameter is still mandatory to make the bullets fit, and it doesn't matter if the bullet is .001 or .008 oversize, the same sizer will bring them to specs.

  So, if the mold isn't casting within the above guaranteed specs from what you ordered, you don't buy another mold to get the right size.  I replace them at no charge.  You'll stilll have to have the right sizer though.

  If the mold is out of tolerance email be direct at,      LBTisAccuracy@Imbris.net       I'll help you find out if it is a problem with the way you are using the mold, which is the case in 99% of oversize bullet problems with LBT molds.  If we can't iron the problem out, then I'll have you return it and I'll make sure you get what you paid for.            LBT  precision.    By the way, my guarantee doesn't have a time limit.

[TommyD]

Hi Veral,

I do appreciate the generosity of your  policies.

The problem is NOT with your mold. I ordered a .454 and you delivered what you promised. The bullet works fine in my Rugers with their oversize cylinders. That is the gun I originally ordered them for.

The "problem" is that the Freedom Arms cylinders are much tighter, and the bullets that work fine in the Ruger are a little too fat for the FA.

I suppose it is like buying clothes. If you buy a new suit that is a size smaller than you usually wear, you will have to lose a little in order to fit into it. Either inches of pounds.

Tom

[TommyD]

The Lee die set arrived and I tried it out yesterday. Works great.
I first size and lube (soft blue) with the .454 RCBS and then push them through the Lee .452 die.
They are snug, but easily push through the FA cylinder.
The loaded cartridges just drop in the cylinder like they should.

Hopefully, I will have an opportunity to actually shoot them soon. Work and weather permitting. 

Thanks for all the advice.

Tom