hard cast ys swaged ?

[irold]

Kinda new to the Cast bullet thing.  I'm planning on reloading 45 Colt to practice in my SRH 454.  At present I have some of what I think to be Keith type cast bullets in 240 grain.  I believe they're made by a local  manufacturer , they called Tru-Flite , 240 LSWC . Are these a cast or swaged ,  they appear to have been poured and molded but I'm not sure.  Lots of members of the Graybeard family suggest using Hard cast in their revolver loads....would these qualify ??    Sorry for sounding dumb , I've used Horn XTPs or Speer all my life (and I'm old) , just never thought about lead.  If I go to the LSWC , is 1000 fps the magic number for leading problems ?  Thanks for the info    Mike

[Luckyducker]

When it comes to handloading lead bullets it seems everybody has an opinion about what works and what doesn't and sometimes their ideas are poles apart.  In my limited experience with loading and shooting lead slugs from revolvers and auto pistols I have found  that there is going to be some leading, period, no matter how fast or slow you throw them.  I tried swaged lead bullets once and will never use them again, and have most of a large box  almost full of slugs I didn't shoot because the lead buildup in the barrel of my 357 looked like mud buildup to the point I couldn't see the rifling grooves.  I have loaded cast bullets from 875 ft/sec to 1335 ft/sec and there doesn't seem to be any difference in leading.  Cast bullets without gas checks have to be pushed hard enough so that the base obturates the groove diameter of the bore keeping the propellant gases from escaping past the side of the slug preventing heat softening of the bearing surface of the bullet which causes melt off of bullet material in the bore.  I have found that cast bullets that are close to throat/bore diameter are most conducive for accuracy and keeping barrel leading to a minimum.

BTW, I am fairly sure the Tru-Flite bullets are cast.

[Lloyd Smale]

swadged bullet are made out of pure lead and are only good for very low velocity loads. Some guys get away with pushing them a tad faster but youd best have a gun that is about perfect to do it. Most swadged bullets are lubed by using a coating rather then having a lube groved filled with lube. If your bullets have a lube grove that is filled with lube there probably cast not swadged. thats still no guarantee that there not cast out of soft lead but in my experience most comerical bullet error on the side of to hard rather then to soft.

[LaOtto222]

While it is true that cast or pure lead bullets will "lead" your barrel the bullet diameter has some thing to do with how much you are getting as well as velocities pushed. Many shooters do not consider this. Usually you want your bullets .001" to .0015" larger in diameter than your groove diameter. Condition of the bore makes a difference too. A smooth bore will lead less than a rough one. It is not the velocity of of the bullet necessarily that causes lead build up. A 22 rim fire with soft lead bullets will do 1200 -1300 fps with out leading a barrel. It is gas cutting on the base of the bullet that causes a lot of the problem. When the bullet is a perfect fit to the bore, it helps reduce the gas cutting too.

[irold]

Ok , so what is the solution ?  I really don't want to create a leading problem .  I don't have the equipment to check the bore or throat of my handguns , assuming I have to "blank" them . (?)  Some time ago on another thread a poster told me about getting bronze wool from Brownells and wrapping it around a bronze brush , said it would take the lead out fast and easy.  Back to my bullets , yes they have three grooves, the middle one is filled with lube......any way to check the hardness ?  Like a" rule of thumb" thing or something ?  Assuming these are of a hard variety , these ok to hunt with ? ( deer sized game)   Maybe around 1000 FPS ?  I've been thinking on using the 300 gr , some say big and slow ?   Sorry about all the questions , I'm really out of my league.  Thanks, Mike

[Savage]

Swagged lead bullets are formed by forcing lead wire thru a swagging die. This by nature requires a softer alloy, close to pure lead works best. Cast bullets can be cast from lead that has antimony and tin added to make the bullet harder. All other things being equal, the harder alloys lead less than the others. Here is a link where cast bullets can be purchased with a Brinnel hardness value from 12 to 18.

http://www.missouribullet.com/index.html

Savage

[LaOtto222]

irold - If I were in your place, I would load some up to about 1000 fps according to loads from a good source. You are just going to have to try them to find out 1. do you have a leading problem and 2. are they accurate. I personally like Unique for cast/swagged bullets, but there are other choices that work well too. If you get leading then reduce your powder charge, but not below recommended levels. You might try a different powder too. I have 5 44 Mag rifles/hand guns. I bought 500 cast bullets for them, a long time ago. I load mine up to about 850 fps out of my hand guns, just a plinking load. I have not had a leading problem at all. Come to find out they are only .4295 in diameter and they do not shoot worth a hoot in any of my guns. I still have the majority of them left because of that. I have been shooting cheap jacketed bullets for practice. I now have some hard cast on order that will be .4315" and I think they will shoot much better. With out knowing the diameter of your barrel and the diameter of the bullets you have, it is a guessing game. Just try them to find out. If you find they are satisfactory, then you got it licked, but if you find that they do not shoot very well or you get a bad leading problem, you will need to try something else. BTW cast bullets should not have a problem at 1000 fps with leading unless they are not correctly sized for your bore, the bore is extremely rough or the cylinders do not line up with the forcing cone very well.

[BBF]

How did things go 100 years ago when all bullets were lead without jackets.??

[SharonAnne]

barrels were cleaned much more frequently

[Savage]

Or------not cleaned at all. As the bores of some old rifles attest to.
Savage

[irold]

Appreciate the feed back ...one and all ....I'm in a learning curve as far as lead bullets are concerned.  Learned a lot from LBTs web site. Think I'll go with a heavy (300 or so) bullet at around 900-1000 and see what happens.   Thanks again,  IROLD

[huntswithdogs]

Your Idea of a plinking load sure is different from mine! A 300gr bullet tootin' along around 1000fps ain't no plinker!

My idea of a plinker is something like a 250RNFP running between 800-900 fps.


HWD

[BBF]

agree with above post. 1000 fps with 300 gr is a bit more then a plinker in my book as well

[LaOtto222]

Do not quote me on this, but I think he switched usage about half way down. I think he is now talking deer loads. At least I hope he is.

There is something about a large diameter, slow, heavy bullet that just seems to lay game out. I would think that 1000 fps and a 300 grain bullet would be just the ticket for deer, but way too heavy for a every day practice round. I prefer a 240 grain slug at about 800-850 fps for that purpose in my 44 Mags. I find them very pleasant to shoot and fun too.

[BBF]

Lloyd: Either Montana or Buffalo Bullets make swaged bullets from an alloy mix to make them harder.

[BBF]

Otto:
240 gr. bullets for the .44 Mag in my opinion are middle weights. 44 Mag stuff runs from 180 gr up to 300.usually

.458 bullets start at approx.300 gr and can go into the + 600gr category. I would consider 400 to 450 gr. as middle weights in that caliber

[LaOtto222]

I would have to agree; 240 are middle weight bullets, I use them for plinking. I do have some 265 grain with a wide flat nose and gas checks coming from Beartooth for more serious situations, still kinda middle weight, but big enough. I was trying to balance weight and velocity. Those will be for handguns, a lever gun, a single shot gun and a 444 Marlin. Kind of a do all bullet.

I believe irold was talking 45 colt or .452 diameter bullets. 250 grain are common for those. I know they make them bigger than 300, but going at 1000 fps should still lay out a deer.

Good Luck and Good Shooting

[irold]

LaOtto 222 , seems you can read my mind.....guess I was a bit unclear , yes , here in Pa , I'm mainly interested in a 45 Colt load for deer.  I was thinking around 300 grain in the 900-1000 FPS range.  (out of a SRH 454 , 7 1/2 inch barrel. )   I've started another topic , trying to find some sort of starting point for the bullets I bought.  Guess I should have tried to find data first...then buy the bullet !  Everyone said the 45C does so well with a 250 grain........yet the perfect hunting bullet was a 300 ??  I figured a 275 was dead smack in the middle !   Anyways ,  Appreciate your help....now just a little bit more ..thanks IROLD