Urgent Review Needed !

[Dross Drunk]

 HI again !! All

 Could someone please view this listing on ebay, for the future safety of others.

 I recently had the Power Supply Unit go out on my computer,and was forced to go on the hunt for the best deal of course, so I fired up my wife's computer and headed for ebay.

 To make a long story short I found my PSU and made a buy it now,then just for fun I thought I would do a search for any old mortars or cannons when I came across this listing.

Link to live auction removed by Moderator--not allowed on GBO--DD

  I am in now way any type of expert as I am very new to Black powder cannons as I have mentioned,but isn't this design just an accident waiting to happen it seems to me that if they don't fill that .6540 POWDER POCKET 5 1/4"deep all the way  full, then the larger 1" INCH  1 1/4" inches deep bore would make whatever they put in it more of an end plug to a pipe bomb more than a projectile ?

 Please forgive me if a member of this board is the manufacture,and I have pointed out a non issue,but I thought the rule was to never have an air space between your charge and your projectile,and to simply make the disclaimer that your not responsible for it's use,just doesn't seem sufficient to me , if this is purchased by someone without a thorough understanding of this things potential, and they chose to test fire with smaller charges first then the projectile, a golf ball in this case would not at all be seated on anything but the barrels recess,and certainly not the powder charge...so I just thought I should bring this to someone who's a bit more qualified then myself to check the design and maybe if needed give this ebay seller a heads up.

  Have a great day,I'll have more pics to come soon............

[cannonmn]

May you misinterpreted what they wrote to describe the geometry, which is this, copied from the ad:

MACHINED SOLID STAINLESS STEEL SIGNAL MORTAR MOUNTED ON A BEAUTIFUL HANDTURNED APPLEWOOD BASE.   THIS IS AN ATTRACTIVE PIECE THAT IS LOTS OF FUN AND ALSO LOOKS GREAT AS A DISPLAY.

     BARREL LENGTH  7 3/4" INCH.

     BARREL DIAM.  2"  INCH.

     BORE DEPTH  6 1/2"  INCH.

     BORE SIZE    1" INCH  1 1/4" INCHES DEEP THEN DROPS DOWN TO .6540 POWDER POCKET 5 1/4" INCHES DEEP.

________________________

That means near the top the bore is 1 inch, then narrows to a very long chamber with .6540 diameter.  If you just take it as a thunder mug with a .654 in. bore and larger false muzzle, I think that's what he has.  I can't see that a blank blackpowder charge would be a problem if I read it correctly.

[Dross Drunk]

I think I stated the dimensions correctly,and those are what sets the tone for what I thought as a possible accident waiting to happen.
 Are we to expect that anyone who purchases this will be informed enough to know that they will have to fill the  powder chamber all 5 1/4 inches or at least seat a wad on top of the powder anything stuffed into the 1 1/4 deep 1' diameter area will be just as I stated if an air space between is allowed to exist it will act as an end plug ,not a wad, or a projectile, and just out of curiousty what would a .6540 POWDER POCKET 5 1/4" INCHES deep hold in BP that alone might very well  exceed the normal or safe load amounts even for a blank.

 I might just be paranoid,but that listing to me without the purchaser being well informed about the firing of these mortars, gave me visions of someone pouring black powder in about 3 quarters of that powder chamber,and then stuffing newspaper in the top 1 1/2 inches.....

 If that was to happen and sufficient instructions weren't given to avoid it could result in a catastrophy,and I feared that since the seller obviously was washing their hands of the use of this item,I doubt they are handing out printed instructions,but I could be wrong,,, I just thought this was a possible design that could hurt us all by it's possible 4th of july play and destruction....

 I certainly would appologize if you think I misrepresented this listing but ,I don't believe I did, what the  seller chooses to say about it or call it, did not in my mind change the math of the mortars dimensions or it's potential for disaster......
 
  IF I am way off base here please feel free to let me know, I am just trying to keep it on the safe side where it concerns our chosen hobby or lifestyle,as they are being taken away a piece at a time

[cannonmn]

My gut feel is that this cannon could withstand any black powder blank charge that could be put in it, with the wadding located anywhere it will fit if wadding is to be used.  There's just too much good metal in it, too thick, to worry about it in my opinion.

I begin to worry about the very thin-walled brass decorator cannons that people want to put firecrackers into.  Firecrackers for the most part use a much more potent explosive than black powder.

I think it is great that you are concerned about these issues, but if I were you, I'd pick something that's really dangerous, and unless I missed something really big here, there's no particular danger of the cannon you mentioned acting like a "pipe bomb" with any grade of black powder.

[GGaskill]

While I agree that the bore geometry is kind of strange, I don't think it is a hazardous design.  Any reasonable charge will have expanded a couple of times before encountering a 1" projectile so the pressure will be substantially reduced.  And a 1" projectile wouldn't really weigh very much unless it were cylindrical and protruded from the muzzle.

As said above, this is a thunder mug without a handle.

[Terry C.]

The words cannon, mortar, and howitzer get tossed around a lot on eBay. Many of the designs really stretch the definitions.

[Dross Drunk]

 I guess I'm just a daisy, I have seen many  hang fires with pyroworks and iron pipes shattered from the shell not being firmly seated on the lift,or in moden shells the whole shell seated on the bottom as the lift is attached. granted most of these resulted in the premature detonation of the shell itself while in the tube,but it was this air space that created the shearing force to crack the shell instead of just punting a low burst, of course nothing of this thickness, but to me  I thought the diameters were alright, but it seemed up side down, I would have expected the powder chamber to be the lowest of the 2 numbers in depth on something of that length,and if nothing is used as wadding like tightly packed damp newspaper.....but thats just me.....

 I'm use to the explosive part taking place 300-600-900 ft above me not at ground zero, looks like it will take a bit of getting use to..... thanks for the input guys, I would just hate to see anyone hurt attempting to have fun...................

[Double D]

I agree the powder chamber is far larger than it needs to be, but if used as directed without a projectile, that isn't the safety issue in my opinion.

This is nothing more than a modern thunder mug as noted above, but it has a far to a small base to make me feel warm and fuzzy.  I think it might be a tad tippy.

Reminder, no links to live auction may be posted on GBO

[intoodeep]

This is nothing more than a modern thunder mug as noted above, but it has a fart to small base to make me feel war and fuzzy.  I think it might be a tad tippy.

   

DD, I think you might want to revise the quote above.

[Dross Drunk]

OOOOPS!

 My bad...wont happen again..........

[dan610324]

hahahaha , its the same problem as I got , my fingers dont do what I tell them to do 

but my mistakes never get that funny 

[Double D]

Honest, I don't drink or do drugs.  I do wear glasses, well at least I am supposed to wear glasses for close work, but my keyboard has dyslexia and suffers from fat finger syndrome.

[dan610324]

I drink but I dont do drugs , ok I got my special drug ( cannons )   
and I got almost the same problem , but for me it is some one who shift place on the letters on my keyboard   

[Dross Drunk]

 Changes made to link...no longer active...... hope this is ok ? Please view....

http://cgi.ebay.com/BLACK-POWDER-CANNON-MORTAR-SIGNAL-CANNON-NOISE-MAKER_W0QQitemZ170223740901QQihZ007QQcategoryZ73979QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 I note that some seem to think that modern steel and black powder limitations would make this a mortar or "thundermug" that would not explode, but another valid point was made that in the light of previous information make it almost as bad as if it would blow up,and that is the observation of it's base and height, after reevaluation the dimensions which are as follows

 BARREL LENGTH  7 3/4" INCH.  BARREL DIAM.  2"  INCH. BORE DEPTH  6 1/2"  INCH.  BORE SIZE    1" INCH  1 1/4" INCHES DEEP THEN DROPS DOWN TO .6540 POWDER POCKET 5 1/4" INCHES DEEP.

 Now heres the math that makes this dangerous in my opinion ,with a powder pocket of .6540 that is 5.25" deep this allows for a BP load of 2fg that is 793.1385 grains or just under 2 ounces, I arrived at this figure using the fact that 1 cubic inch of space will hold 231 grains of 2fg BP ,the bore diameter of .6540 multiplied by the 5.25" depth allows for 3.4335 cubic inches of space then multiply that figure by the 231 grains per cubic inch to reach the 793.1385 grains, and there is 437.5 grains of 2fg per ounce or 875 grains per 2 ounces.

 Now I know this doesnt sound like much to the big bore gang, but it has been reported on this board more than once that a cotton rag used as a wad has been embedded in to a tree at 20 ft with about a 1.5 oz 2fg load.

 So add those figures and double check my math as I am not a rocket scientist, but this size load coupled with it's obvious tipsy stature ,and you have a recipe for somebody wearing a Bandana in their head instead of on it.

 I certainly dont mean to scare anyone off from making a purchase from this maker, I just would like the uninformed to be aware of the possibilities,and to always remember, anything coming out of that barrel beit it toast or the times will be a projectile for a short distance before gravity takes it's hold..... this isn't browny mix

 Just remember those figures are as if the user already knows to do their powder measurement based on the powder chamber size,and follows the basic load rules for blanks, and I can't tell you how many times I've read those posts about what makes a good blank wadding,,,well in this mortar/thundermug......nothing would be the best bet, follow the rules for safe load procedures and foill wrapped charges ,and you should be okay, but if you dont..............put sandbags around it for the spectators.

 I just thought this had to be said with the 4th comming up and all, there are many youngsters out there wanting to make a terrific noise,and God Bless em for it......just survive it...................
                                                                                       Thanks for viewing my concerns...

 I have finished my second piece a modern day thundermug of what I hope is a little safer design than the one shown here, it is as simple as can be,with a couple added asthetics for Holiday enjoyment, I will post pictures tonight....
                                                                                          Have a great weekend all.......

[jeeper1]

An air space is OK between the powder and projectile. Both my mortars have it as does my 37mm flare launchers and when I shoot rifle grenades off my AR15. Heck even 40mm grenades have an air gap in them.

[irishman]

I share your concern regarding a few Ebay sellers. My view is from a slightly different direction.  Most are good to very responsible in their listings. The listing you refer to, IMO, paints a picture in the buyer's mind of, “fill it with powder, light the fuse and WOW!” the neighbors will be impressed!

The venue for people to discuss such issues is one reason I find GBO to be such an invaluable tool.

I sell on Ebay, from “firecracker” barrels to GB bore mortars and howitzers. Some of the most knowledgeable Cannoneers on this board have called my barrels overbuilt and indestructible with black powder use. That said, when I sell a barrel on eBay, I refer my customers to GBO in an effort to remind them there is more to this sport than impressing the neighbors.... I also make it a point to caution them on the side effects of the addiction:  sore cheeks from smiling too hard!!

Barrels I list on Ebay are sold with instructions provided and with the recommendation to join GBO for access to the most friendly, informative, and most importantly, safety-minded people. Our firecracker launchers have brought many “entry level” cannoneers to GBO, many have remained and have gone on to buying barrels larger than I make, from other GBO Sponsors.

Re: Cannonmn post:

I begin to worry about the very thin-walled brass decorator cannons that people want to put firecrackers into.  Firecrackers for the most part use a much more potent explosive than black powder

.

To be sure, Cannonmn would  not be referring to our firecracker launcher introduced in the “backyard cannon fun” thread.  It was developed under much scrutiny and is overbuilt in Brooks-USA tradition. I think that thread has had more readers than any other GBO thread, 13,000+

Please tolerate a bit of “sales plug,” eBay will stop cannon sales one day! They have changed their policy numerous times on black powder devices already, once removing my ads and informing me that they didn't recognize the sunsetting of the assult weapons ban.  You are right, with the Fourth of July coming up, this is the perfect time to get the information out...safety first!   Would someone like to start up the Backyard Cannon Fun Thread again...I will try to send some newbies!

I encourage all of my fellow GBO sponsors to advertise right here, in our GBO classifieds. It makes perfect sense.  We can cause this forum to be THE PLACE to buy.

                                                       Michael

[Dross Drunk]

Air Space

This condition has been known to generate pressures well in excess of those developed by correct loading procedures, and resulting in numerous catastrophic failures, including Black powder cannons and guns bursting, and in my personal experience, can shear a pyro shell open in the tube creating a blockage or premature detonation or even worse yet  make a shell intended for 600 ft burst at 150ft .

 Nothing like a bunch of flaming composition stars shooting at you to keep you on your toes

 SO I have no idea what you're talking about, I wouldn't think there should ever be a circumstance where a gap between the powder charge and the projectile would be advisable in Black powder arms of any kind.......

   Am I the only one who thinks this??? if so please correct me, I'm a big boy,and am looking to learn, but this is not a circumstance I would ever be willing to participate firing under