British naval guns ca. 1690

[cannonmn]

A friend owns an admiralty model warship.  He wants a "builder's model" naval cannon of that period to display with it.  I need to know what I'm looking for.  I can't seem to find many sources to show me what they should look like, despite looking thorough books and surfing the web for some hours.  There are one or two cannons from around that time shown in THE ARMOURIES OF THE TOWER OF LONDON, but that doesn't give me a very good feel for the various types of naval ordnance which was in use at that time.

 Does anyone have photos or accurate drawings of British naval cannons ca. 1690?  Can you recommend sources of info?

[Tropico]

You might check out the web site for the QAR or the Whydah.., thats during "The Golden Age" of Piracy . I am sure a few cutthroats had them...., what of the WASA's  (Vasa) web site ?...,  I'll look thru my cannon pics.

[cannonmn]

You might check out the web site for the QAR or the Whydah.., thats during "The Golden Age" of Piracy . I am sure a few cutthroats had them...., what of the WASA's  (Vasa) web site ?..., 

Thanks I took your suggestion and tried that, went to many sites mentioning that pirate ship.  There were a lot of pix of "concretions" recovered from the water but none after the cannons were preserved so you can see the details.  I think a pirate ship would be armed with "whatever" they could pick up, but if they had some English cannons that would work if we could ID then via markings, but iron guns don't show marks well after that long underwater.

Vasa...Swedish.  I need to find some English guns.

[dan610324]

try  :  www.arkeliet.net

ok I know most info is norwegian , but if you dont look for an specific gun it could do , the drawings are north european . I would say that it was extremely unusual that any coutries ships was equiped with an in the country produced model completely .
most ships had a lot of different cannons and calibers , mostly war trophys .
what I found out so far is that vasa was the only ship from that time who had all the guns the exact same model , mostly they took what they had . if you look at archeological research you will see that its not uncommon that they find 40 different cannons and calibers from one single ship .
many times the year of production of the cannons on one ship could have an difference for 100 - 150 years or even more . and they always got a lot of foreign origins , but not the vasa ship , but its also the one and only ship I know about who was equipped with exactly the same guns .
try googling for  :  regalskeppet kronan
there you probably find a lot of info

check arkeliet again , thats the best info I found yet for those guns .

[cannonmn]

Thanks Dan, yes that's a nice site.

Friend was very specific, the model has to be of a type produced for the Royal Navy, so even though you and I know they probably used some stuff from other countries, the only thing he is interested in is items of a pattern known to have been cast in England, let's say from about 1650-1700.

I think it would help if I post some pix of the kind of thing I think he wants, the late 17th C. English guns were rather unique in design, especially the cascabel, the shape of which seems to be unique, more like a finial on a piece of furniture than a knob of any kind.

[Double D]

John,

Have you contacted these folks and asked for help?

http://www.royalnavalmuseum.org/research_library.htm

[cannonmn]

Thanks DD (that stands for Destructive Device as far as most people I deal with are concerned.)

Here's what I wrote them:

Hello, I need images of Royal Navy shipboard main battery guns ca. 1690.  I can use either images from books, or preferebly drawings and/or pictures of surviving specimens that can be dated accurately enough to assure they could have been in the main gun battery of a Royal Navy warship in 1700.

I have a copy of Blackmore's THE ARMOURIES OF THE TOWER OF LONDON and have looked at all the British guns in it.  The closest thing I've found is a pair of iron guns assigned a date of 1746 that are said to be of an earlier style,  (pp. 73, cat. no. 53).  However these 24 pounder guns would not be naval since they were made for Ireland.

If you can steer me to anything better, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thank you.

(contact info follows)

[Squire Robin]

Your problem is the Victorians who were mad on re-enacting. They refurbished everything interesting with fancy cast iron carriages and left the rest to rot. There is one possible civil war survivor, a light field carriage Rabonet in the Rotunda at Woolwich but that's about it. Charles II simply chiselled the Comonwealth marks of his cannon and was well armed. The 1690's were William and Mary, William invaded by invitation ousting James II who was totally ghastly, unpopular and Catholic. He was never supposed to be king but his elder brother Charles II was slaughtered by overenthusiastic doctors when he fell ill. Perhaps you should look for dutch cannon, I think they were all much the same across Europe.

[cannonmn]

Thanks for info.  here are some pix that give an idea of what I think we're looking for.  There were a few guns in the Tower of London that have this general shape, the most notable distinguishing feature being the cascabel.  In the pix, there is a small model made I think during the 17th C. as it has steel chaplets embedded in either side of the breech and so was cast on a core, a good indicator of age.  I believe it is a model cannon made by a cannon maker, possibly John Browne ca. 1650.  The larger item is an exact replica of a small gun that belonged to the Prince of Wales, which is marked "John Browne made this piece 1638."  I put them side-by-side to show the style similarities.  The model's barrel is about 10.5" long, the prince's gun is about 29 in. long.  Sorry no powercan in pictures.  Hope to get better pix later.  The walnut carriage is a much later repro, made by amateur hobbyist I think.  The small model is the earliest "maker's scale model" of an English cannon that I know of.

[cannonmn]

Better pix, I think.

In some of the side views that show the area in the rear of the trunnions, you can see the ends very small steel chaplets on the tube near the capsquare nut.  For some reason, they use dual chaplets, one on top of the other.  There's a set of chaplets on either side of the tube .

[intoodeep]

cannonmn,

 Nice tubes there. However, I think there maybe a bit of hardware confusion. I thought the naval gun was suppose to use a "quoin" and not a "coin" for elevating......    

 

[dan610324]

hey John
could you please do me an favour ??
take an photo of the muzzle area of the larger gun , as close as possible .

its almost frightening , but dont you think its extremely close in shape to my 1622 pattern ??

its only 18 years in time difference

[cannonmn]

I thought the naval gun was suppose to use a "quoin" and not a "coin" for elevating......

hehe

[cannonmn]

ok Dan:

[dan610324]

ooooohhh , its almost as identical as you can get without to be an exact replica of your model

its almost spooky

[A.Roads]

Hi John,
I have scanned some scaled line drawings of actual barrels & carriages appropriate to that era from Adrian Caruana's "The History of English Sea Ordnance, 1523 - 1875" specifically Vol I, 1523 - 1715, The Age of Evolution. I have Vol II, 1715 - 1815, sadly he did not complete Vol III, 1815 - 1865, as far as I am aware.

I'll try & post them here but if the link below doesn't work let me know your email address & I'll forward them to you direct.
Adrian.


   

[intoodeep]

cannonmn,

 Not to change the subject. But, I have seen quite a few tubes with the notches in the breech and muzzle area. I have always wondered what they were actually for. Most have had them on the top but, a few have had them on the sides too. Are they some sort of crude sights? They never seem to be made very straight or, inline with the center of the tube.

[cannonmn]

Those notches are called quarter sights or quadrant sights.   Here are two explanations from the web, basically as I understand them they allow you to fairly quickly aim the gun and set the gun for the correct elevation.

 http://www.hms-victory.com/index.php?Itemid=90&id=59&option=com_content&task=view

http://www.hms-victory.com/index.php?Itemid=90&id=59&option=com_content&task=view

[intoodeep]

cannonmn,

 Thanks for the answer.