Author Topic: tumbler problem  (Read 983 times)

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Offline mjbgalt

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tumbler problem
« on: May 19, 2008, 05:08:35 PM »
i used my hornady tumbler on some .204 brass last night. i bought the walnut media with rouge additive. when i pulled them out and lubed to size, my press threw a fit and chattered and almost froze up while sizing. i figure it was the dust from the rouge drying out the die, so i made sure to hit every single one with a q-tip of lube inside the neck. no change, still the chattering and such.

do you guys rinse your brass off or something? how else do you keep this from happening? i think it's the rouge, because it's never been a problem before.

-Matt
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Offline jhalcott

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Re: tumbler problem
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2008, 06:47:51 PM »
  Matt,ls this chattering going on when the case is being inserted into the die? Or is it when you extract the case and the neck rides over the expander ball?? It sounds like a case of work hardened brass. Are there any marks left on the cases from the die? Last,but important,WHAT kind of lube are you using? Spray or gel type?
  The .204 is a tiny case and put under a LOT of stress when fired. It only takes a few shots to work harden it. I run into this problem with max loads in my 6MM remington brass. I lube them with RCBS lube and the necks with Graphite on a nylon brush. I wipe the cases on a soft towel after tumbling also.

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: tumbler problem
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2008, 02:31:03 AM »
As you know there should not be a chattering going on. I have not used walnut, but have used corncob media with rouge. There is a little rouge left on the cases and I never had a chattering problem. I do not think it is the rouge. I would look for walnut dust in the rouge sticking on the cases first. If you find that then wiping would be in order. You said when you insert the case so I am thinking it is not the expander ball, but on the out side of the case. I would wipe them down and see if the problem goes away.
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Offline Hairtrigger

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Re: tumbler problem
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2008, 02:47:39 AM »
If the dust is the issue you can put a dryer sheet or two in the media. I add a bit of liquid car wax to my media and have never had any dust, that may help you as well. Do not add too much wax!

Offline davem270win

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Re: tumbler problem
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2008, 05:58:15 AM »
You didn't mention how long you tumbled. If the brass hasn't completely polished, it could be it's retaining more residue. How long to polish depends on the cases - if they're dirtier, they will take longer. Also depends on the media - fresh new media will take less time than older stuff.

Offline mjbgalt

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Re: tumbler problem
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2008, 06:27:41 AM »
brand new media, tumbled maybe 2 hours.

the die started getting tight on the "in" stroke and when i got it to the point of pulling down to extract the case, it started chattering and it took a LOT of force to get the brass back out.

i do not load max loads so it shouldn't be work hardened after one or two firings...

-Matt
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Offline moosie

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Re: tumbler problem
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2008, 08:00:30 AM »
If the dust is the issue you can put a dryer sheet or two in the media. I add a bit of liquid car wax to my media and have never had any dust, that may help you as well. Do not add too much wax!

This intrigues me:  I understand about the dryer sheets, although I would not have thought of it myself, but what does the liquid car wax do to hold down dust?    How much liquid wax do you add to say a quart of media?  is there a particular brand you would recommend?
Moosie
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Offline jhalcott

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Re: tumbler problem
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2008, 08:15:58 AM »
  Matt ,measure one of your cases before AND after sizing. As I said before ,it doesn't take many firings to stress a .204 case. Another thought is what type of gun/action is being used. If you can find some Imperial case lube, try that on the cases. I've used it when reforming 30-30 brass to 30 herret. Cases sized down MUCH easier than with any other lube.

Offline Hairtrigger

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Re: tumbler problem
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2008, 08:19:05 AM »
I use turtle wax. I have no idea about the dust but I add less than a cap full to my Lyman 1200 tumbler. The brass is very shiney when tumbled overnight.
For case lube I use Imperial sizing wax.

Offline stimpylu32

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Re: tumbler problem
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2008, 08:37:35 AM »
Matt

What are you using for case lube ? It sounds more like a lube problem than a media dust thing . I would check to see that your getting enough lube on the outside of the cases and also inside the neck area .

stimpy
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Offline corbanzo

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Re: tumbler problem
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2008, 09:16:59 AM »
Yeah, the chattering thing is a skin friction problem.  If it were a dust problem, then you could notice tiny scrape marks on your brass, and it would feel gritty as it went in, not the jump and chattering. 

When is the chattering starting?  Usually for me, if I have a heavily expanded case, then it would start when I have 3/4's of the case in, just near the case head, where most expansion has occured.  If so, then it has nothing to do with the mouth or expander ball.  In this case, you need more lube down at the neck on the outside of the case.  I don't think the expander ball creates enough force to make for very sticky removal.  I have though, pulled out an expender ball from a 30-06 die, which was on an unclean case I was resizing, all the grit inside locked onto the ball, and pulled the whole thing out of the sizing die. 

So if is on first entry, or the last part exiting, then it is in fact the expander, and if it is, you can brush out the case mouth with a nylon brush, and also, as you have already done... more lube.

From what you have said, it is upon final insertion, or the first part of extraction that it is happening, then it is the expansion near the case head, or case wall, and if they are already tumbled, it is a lube problem.  If you use a thin type of lubricant, like a spray on, you may want to switch to something a little thicker, like a gel type lube, or a wax.

I use the RCBS case lube-2, and it has run through some pretty damn hard cases.  I had some range brass I picked up that was who knows how old (WRA headstamp)... that I actually scraped some brass off the casing because they were so hard to size.  (I know, I shouldn't be loading them in the first place, but other than that, they look healthy)  But with that lube, I had no chattering of any kind, then still went smooth. 
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Offline Hairtrigger

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Re: tumbler problem
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2008, 12:04:10 PM »
Trust me on this one... buy a $8 can of Imperial sizing wax, enough for 1/2 lifetime... problem solved

Offline mjbgalt

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Re: tumbler problem
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2008, 12:39:33 PM »
i am using hornady spray wax lube, which has never ever given me trouble before...but i am on my last bit on this can...maybe not enough wax is coming out anymore?

I will try it again tonight but with the new can and see if it's as simple as that.

-Matt
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Offline Savage

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Re: tumbler problem
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2008, 01:06:14 PM »
I'd go to the RCBS case lube at the very least! The Imperial Sizing Wax would be even better. I tried to use the spray case lubes, after a couple of stuck cases I gave it to a guy I didn't like. You're right on the verge of a stuck case--------be warned!
Savage
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Offline mjbgalt

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Re: tumbler problem
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2008, 01:10:42 PM »
oh, i know i almost stuck them...trust me, the thought crossed my frustrated mind.

i love the spray wax though, never had a single problem and i don't have any intention of switching back to the rcbs lube that is slimy and i have to wipe off.

-Matt
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Offline stimpylu32

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Re: tumbler problem
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2008, 01:20:10 PM »
Matt

See your smarter than you thought you were , you awnsered your own ? , give the new can a try , I think that will cure your problem .

stimpy
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Offline charles p

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Re: tumbler problem
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2008, 01:51:09 PM »
Never experienced the problem you are describing, but I don't load for 204 (yet).  I do load about 10 bottle neck calibers.  I use Lee white paste lubricant and RCBS and Pacific dies.  I put a dab of their white lube on top of my left hand, then when I am ready to lube the neck of a case I touch the Lee lube with my right index finger and apply this to the neck.  Learned this trick while watching cut men working on pro boxers.  Works for me too.

I've never had sticky or chattering cases except on the up stroke, as the case is pulling back over the expander ball.  I little lube on the case mouth solves this.  I can get buy with lubing about every forth case mouth.

Offline Savage

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Re: tumbler problem
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2008, 02:41:34 PM »
Matt,
Yep, case lube is a bother, but not so much if used correctly. I have been using it for 38 yrs without ever having a stuck case. A year ago when I started back loading for the .223, I bought some of the spray lube to make the operation a little cleaner. In the course of loading 1100 or so rounds, I had two stuck cases.  Decided, the lube mess was the lesser evil. Back with the old lube pad these days. I hope your spray lube continues to work for you.
Savage
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Offline mjbgalt

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Re: tumbler problem
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2008, 03:07:19 PM »
yep, that's exactly what happened. the spray was down to the last little bit and it was more water and propellant than wax.

thanks guys, for all the help. I learned a few things :)

-Matt
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Offline stimpylu32

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Re: tumbler problem
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2008, 03:13:16 PM »
Another happy camper - all is well in his world again .  ;D
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Offline gypsyman

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Re: tumbler problem
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2008, 03:42:46 PM »
Glad you figured out the problem. You might also try using carbide size buttons, much easier pulling out.  gypsyman
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Offline LaOtto222

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Re: tumbler problem
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2008, 12:17:06 AM »
mjbgalt - I am glad you found the problem.

I hate lubing cases so I avoid it when ever possible. I do this by using carbide sizers on straight wall cases and using Lee collet neck sizing dies when I can get them. When I do have to lube cases, I use RCBS Case Lube II on a pad. I have never had a stuck case. When I used it in the past, I wiped the cases down or run them through a tumbler. Lately I have been sizing, then just drop them into a tub of water. When I am done sizing, I give the cases a little swishing in the water and then lay them out on a towel to dry. If I am in a real hurry I tap them upside down on the towel to get rid of excessive water from the inside and wipe the out side down with a towel. No residue left and it only takes a little while for them to dry off completely. You could hurry it up even more by putting them into a pan and a little heat from an oven. I am surprised that more folks do not mention using water to clean off the RCBS lube. It says it is water soluble right on the tube.
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Offline 7 MM

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Re: tumbler problem
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2008, 04:18:44 PM »
I do not know about theothers but I only use STP as case lube during sizing.
Have been using it for 30 years with very little problems.
Try STP and see if it stops the chattering

Offline warrior1

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Re: tumbler problem
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2008, 06:34:45 PM »
imperial die sizing wax and graphite on theinside necks.further  270,308,45/70 7mm08, 7mm mag,running into sizing die like a warm knife going thru soft butter.dan
Dan Deluca aka "warrior1" has passed away.  Dan was a frequent poster here and on several other sites.  He passed away on 12/29/08 from a massive heart attack. RIP Dan.