Author Topic: Kit Gun???  (Read 3438 times)

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Offline Lawful Larry

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Kit Gun???
« on: May 21, 2008, 11:18:16 AM »
I asked this in another forum, but I value the expertise of the folks at this one so here it is:

"I am thinking of getting a kit gun to keep me busy.  Been retired for a short while and need something to keep me going. 
Some info  on what I already have.  I have a Tradtions Crocket, .32 cal. squirely gun.  A Lyman GPR FL .50 cal, and a Lyman Hawkens Carbine in .54 cal.  I shoot sabots from the Hawkens because it is a 1 in 24' twist. The GPR is a 1 in 66" twist and I shoot PRB's.  I also shoot PRB's in the Crocket.  It has a 1 in 48" twist."   

"The idea of the  kit gun  is for me to put it together.  This would make me bond more with the piece, I think.  This would be the first time I am trying something like this.  Do I need any special training?"

"So, who has the best kit gun available out there???  Any help in this area would be greatly appreciated guys."
Just another voice in the crowd!!!

 

Offline ratgunner

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Re: Kit Gun???
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2008, 12:59:15 PM »
Hmmm,I think "captchee" can help you with this one.
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Offline forest2

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Re: Kit Gun???
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2008, 03:08:36 PM »
And I think; spend hours reading the "archives" on this site,
 you will very likley come to a single consensus for the kit, it's ease and value.
Do you need special training? no, but it is best to read previously printed books and info to assure no bias examples or current favoritism.
Good luck, it's not that tough,,just don't hurry it.

Offline flintlock

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Re: Kit Gun???
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2008, 04:31:33 PM »
The best gun "kit" available by far come from Jim Chambers at www.flintlocks.com

He worked at Old Salem with John Bivens years ago and then started making and selling rifles made by his hand...They are the most historically accurate "kit" ever made...

Most of the "kits" made by manufacturers don't resemble the originals...

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Kit Gun???
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2008, 12:31:38 PM »
The best gun "kit" available by far come from Jim Chambers at www.flintlocks.com

Those are some beautiful rifles.  Great selection of styles to.  I assume costly also.  Didn't really take time to look.
Larry, I tell ya what I did though.  2-3 decades ago I bought a couple of cheap, $75 each I believe, kits from Midsouth.  My eldest son and I put them together.  It was more assembly then build.  After getting bit by the black powder bug I decided I'd build my own rifles since there weren't any kits like the ones flintlock gave you the link to.

I read, bought books and magazines, and studied styles and makers.  Then started buying parts for my first build.  There are many suppliers but start off with track of the wolf's catalog.  After spending a BUNCH of money, can't remember how much but well over $500 as I remember, for rifle parts and hand/woodworking tools, and investing over 250 hours of my time,  I finished my first one, styled after a Southern Mountain Rifle.  Great fun, much sense of accomplishment and a rifle I'm proud to show off and say I built.  You can buy a kit, but why not be your own contractor and select and buy your parts as you need them.  I feel that's the way to go.

But I warn you, once you decide on caliber, Bbl length, full or half stock, type wood, furniture, etc., and build your rifle, you will start thinking about other styles you want to build.  I'm into another one now and have ideas for 3 more!

Richard
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Offline chickenlittle

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Re: Kit Gun???
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2008, 05:18:04 AM »
It really comes down to what you mean by "kit gun". Do you want to buy a set of matching parts and a stock blank and build it from scratch. Or do you want a kit that lets you pretty much assemble with just some minor fitting and then stain the stock?

Offline Lawful Larry

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Re: Kit Gun???
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2008, 09:24:36 AM »
Boy I was thinking of a kit gun, but now see that I can go many different ways.  Atlaw, your idea sounds a lot more like fun then just getting a kit with some assembly required.  I think  I will research this project a lot more then I thought I would have to.  I beginning to believe I will have a good time dong this gun!

Thanks guys, and good shooting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!                   ;)
Just another voice in the crowd!!!

 

Offline flintlock

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Re: Kit Gun???
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2008, 04:12:50 AM »
Do you know what type or style gun you want to build??? When I built my first over 20 years ago, I wanted a rifle that would have been made in Piedmont NC, possibly  could have been used at Kings Mountain or Guilford Courthouse, even could have ended up in TN or KY during the mid 1770s...

I went with a early Lancaster styled stock that I modified a bit and matched the furniture to the time period...

Certain parts sources have certain guns/styles that they specialize in and are known for...If you narrow it down to a time period or a persona then you can target these sources...

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Kit Gun???
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2008, 07:46:19 AM »
Atlaw, your idea sounds a lot more like fun then just getting a kit with some assembly required.

Ain't no doubt about it!   :)   More rewarding in every respect!

Quote
I think  I will research this project a lot more then I thought I would have to.

Tru dat!  But that's a lot of the fun!  It was for me anyway.  There is tons of information out there, and I did my initial research before the Internet was real informative... right after Gore invented it I think...  ::).  I'm sure that FlintLock can correct me as my memory ain't what it usetawas, but you might want to check out "Muzzle Blasts" (?)  magazine.  Besides being full of good stuff in general, they ran a multi issue series years ago on how to build a rifle by a person who titled himself the "Gun Smith of Green(something) County" or something similar.  It was very well written, detailed and easy to understand.  They may have reprints available.

With modern rifles, everything attaches to the rifle action.  With traditional BP rifles, everything attaches to the stock.  I spent the majority of the time on that first rifle trimming down then fitting parts to a big hunk of Cherry Wood.  That will teach you patience real fast!   ;D
Richard
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Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Kit Gun???
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2008, 08:18:35 AM »
I went with a early Lancaster styled stock that I modified a bit and matched the furniture to the time period...

I did basically the same thing with my first, but went with a late Southern Mountain Rifle from TN that might have found it's way down into GA.  I did take license with some of the furnishings however.   ;)

Quote
Certain parts sources have certain guns/styles that they specialize in and are known for...If you narrow it down to a time period or a persona then you can target these sources...

Good advice.  In scouting those sources out you can't help but be exposed to other examples.  I recommended the Track of the Wolf catalog as a reference/example/supply source, but I think I've actually bought only a few parts from them.

Coincidence, I'm working on a late Lancaster using measurements I took from an original.  Gonna be a real inlaying challenge.   ;D

But I also want to start work on the perfect traditional hunting rifle; never could get my head around those plastic stocked in-lines.  I spent a day sitting in a tree stand thinking about a design, no doubt prompted by my trying to maneuver that 44 inch barreled rifle of mine sitting 20 feet off the ground.   :P  It will have no historical correctness, light weight, half stock, short barrel, hooked breach, .54 Cal. with twist cut for heavy conicals, iron furniture, etc..  Seems like I'm describing them commercial "Hawkin" style rifles by various makers don't it?   ;)
Richard
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Offline longcaribiner

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Re: Kit Gun???
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2008, 10:32:06 AM »
There are various manufacturers and various amounts of work done.  Many of the old CVA kits merely had to be lightly sanded, finished and assembled.  Of course Dixie Gun Works sold kits that were basically a bag of metal parts and a slab of wood for a stock.    There are two good books that give great tips and explain where shortcuts can be taken and where they must never be taken.  One is Recreating the Pennsylvania Long Rifle and another with a similar name by Chuck Dixon of Dixon's muzzleloader shop in Kempton, PA.  My favorite is Dixon's book available through his web site.  It is a bit more like a comic book in pictures and style, than like a text book.  I think it is the best. 

There aren't many kits out there anymore.  At one time, you could pick them up at any store with a sporting goods dept.

When you go to buy a kit and consider price etc., keep in mind that a Tradition's kit, has (probably) Spanish made parts, they are made to be mass produced and are of "of" quality.  This includes the lock, triggers and barrel, the three parts most important to the guns operation.  While a Jim Chambers kit may be double or triple that, even more, in cost, there is a huge difference in quality.  An L&R lock is worth $125 or more, if tuned, a quality barrel is $150 to 250.00 and really good set triggers may easily be another $100. 

There is a really big difference in how the two different guns go off as well.  Even between a semi custom like Jim Chambers and a Thompson center.  No click, psssst bang, just bang for a proper gun.   Folks I have talked to didn't believe me until I took them to the range and put my guns against theirs.  Three of them now sold their production guns and got very high quality semi or custom guns. 

You obviously want to take care and do a proper job.  getting a good start with high quality components and some extra care will give you a lifetime gun and family heirloom.

Offline flintlock

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Re: Kit Gun???
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2008, 10:56:33 AM »
That series was the Gunsmith of Grantville County...It's in a book now and has a bunch of info...Hershal House also made a book about 20 years ago that I have as well...I'd also recommend Foxfire 5 and George Shumway's books called Rifles of Colonial America, it's a 2 part volume...I understand Jim Chambers also has a video out now, but I haven't bought it...yet... :)

I was lucky on my first one, found a guy in Winston that made stocks and sold parts...He had researched North Carolina rifles and I ordered everything through him...When Old Salem opened up the Vogler gunshop a few years back they had an old rifle that was made in the area....My first was a dead ringer, including stock and  furniture...Here's a pic...



Back in the 70s I bought a gun built by Bob Watts, it's more of a 1820 style with the slender stock and crescent butt plate...






Offline flintlock

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Re: Kit Gun???
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2008, 11:02:04 AM »
Here's the Bob Watts rifle...


Offline Lawful Larry

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Re: Kit Gun???
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2008, 01:56:54 AM »
But I also want to start work on the perfect traditional hunting rifle; never could get my head around those plastic stocked in-lines.  I spent a day sitting in a tree stand thinking about a design, no doubt prompted by my trying to maneuver that 44 inch barreled rifle of mine sitting 20 feet off the ground.   :P  It will have no historical correctness, light weight, half stock, short barrel, hooked breach, .54 Cal. with twist cut for heavy conicals, iron furniture, etc..  Seems like I'm describing them commercial "Hawkin" style rifles by various makers don't it?   ;)

A few years ago I had a little Christmas money left over and I bought a Cabela's Sportized Hawkens Carbine in .54 cal. :



It served me well in the woods this past year.  I harvested a nice large doe at a difficult 40 yards.  It is light and handles very nicely in the woods.  The only problem to some, is that the twist rate for this gun is 1 in 24".  It shoots sabots very well, but not PRBs.  I don't think Cabela's sells it anymore though.
Just another voice in the crowd!!!

 

Offline captchee

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Re: Kit Gun???
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2008, 04:44:25 AM »
well as others here have said you have lots of choices .
Jim chambers has some wonderful  pieces on his web site .
 however  keep in mind that these are not  what I would call kit guns .
Jims  pieces are top of the line  and while they are  sold in  a form that resemble a kit “IE pieces “ these are builders kits  and are not simply screw together like production kits  such as Lyman , CVA , Thompson and such .
this also goes for the rifles found at Track of the wolf or pecatonica River  
 here are a couple more links for you

Pecatoncia River
http://www.longrifles-pr.com/

Track of the Wolf
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(hazp4b45t30204555qzlhzre))/index.aspx

Sitting fox
http://www.sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com/intro.html

for any of these , if your going to get into building. get  some book s that will show you  how to do them properly .
I learned  Long, long ago from  recreating the American long rifle by Shumway .
 thought today most folks seem to be  recommending The Gunsmith Of Greenville County by Peter Alexander
the reason I say this is that  you have choices  from everything   blanks to pre-carved stocks , partially inlet  to fully inlet in the white pieces  that  normally only need the finish work done .
 now the other venue you can go is  to by a used rifle and simply restock it .
 see most of the production kits out there suffer greatly in that they come  where the parts just drop into place . this leads folks to think ;haaaa pretty simply .
well IMO ALL these suffer from way to much wood  and a better rifle will result if you do  alittle study  from the above books ..
 the wood on the lower end kits like CVA and traditions use is also of poor quality  and doesn’t lend well to carving and wire working .
some also come with plastic  stocks .
I bet I do  at least 10-15 restocks of these rifles a year .
take the little CVA bobcats / realy these are a pretty fair rifle  for the money . but  if you  do some work , buy a blank and  read the  books listed above , you  can  make your own kit that will result in them looking like this .
these are all CVA conversions , i hope this will show you what can be done with these rifles

CVA bobcats




Tradditions  Deer hunter


CVA Kentucky



CVA SXS converted to flint and re stocked


for more info on this you can find and article i wrote as well as a very good article by Steve Zehn  on building from a  blank to finished rifle in the TMA journals or by following this link
http://www.traditionalmuzzleloadingassociation.com/forum/phpbb2/viewforum.php?f=76

 now most certainly another option  is the production rifle kits / Lyman and TC IMO make the best . their parts are quality and  most time while their wood is still alittle lacking , it is of fairly good walnut .

 now price  wise , don’t let production kits fool ya . if you look around  you may just find that a good custom builders kit from say sitting fox or north star west  will come in just a 100 or so above  the  cost of what TC and Lyman are wanting .
recently I priced a traditions kit for a fella . I about fell off my chair . so I steered him to Pecatonica river and sitting fox .  both  have much better choices concerning woods as well as styles of rifles  but they do take more work .
as far a jims rifles “Chambers “  well his name says it all really . if you can afford  the cost , you wont find a better  builders kit available

Offline deadrabbit

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Re: Kit Gun???
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2008, 02:51:38 PM »
You all have some beautiful guns!

Offline flintman

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Re: Kit Gun???
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2008, 01:27:41 PM »
 Robert Watts,now there was a man who was a GREAT craftsman!
John 3:16

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Kit Gun???
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2008, 07:36:04 AM »
I'm sure it was Bob who taught a rifle building course I attended many years ago.  Whomever it was, I could never hope to reach his level of craftsmanship!  However, if it was him, by the time he taught this series of classes he was no longer building rifles but had switched over to making bamboo fly rods.  I'll check with the guy who set up the classes (he's still alive and running his gunshop in Marietta) and make sure it was Robt. Watts or just another senility attack.  ;)
Richard
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