WFN vs. LFN for 510 GNR?

[HHI 812]

Veral,
Trying to decide between a LFN or WFN for my Reeder 510 GNR. The 510 GNR is similar to the 500 Linebaugh, but case length is shorter. From  your suggestions, I've decided to go with a gas check bullet, weighing at 350 grains. Gun I have, is a 8" T/C encore single shot pistol. Now I'm wondering on whether to go with a LFN or a WFN? When would you choose the LFN over the WFN, and when would you choose the WFN over the LFN? I want to keep things simple, so want to standardize on one bullet style. Because of its lighter weight, compared to the more common heavy bullets used in this caliber, roughly what range would it be too far to break Alaskan big game heavy bone, with this 350 grain weight in .511" caliber? I've read answers you posted, on how the heavier bullets would be more accurate at long range, and penetrate deeper. Want to get a rough idea on the limitations of range and killing power, by going with such a light weight bullet?

In your opinion, is this 350 grain weight a light weight for the caliber, or a standard weight for the caliber? Was also considering a meplat split between a LFN and WFN? Some of both worlds??? Can this be done and worth doing?

Also considering a double crimper? One seated deeper for a target light load, and one longer for a faster hunting load? Gary Reeder has ammo right now, with the shorter seated into the crimp for target loads, and the longer seated into the grease groove, for hunting ammo. What do you think?
Thanks,
Dennis

[Veral]

  Perhaps of interest is the fact that 385 grains is the most popular weight bullet I sell for the 500 Linebaugh.

  When percentage is looked at there is little difference  when only 35 gr is trimmed from a 385 gr.
 
  Another way to look at weight is this.  If a 300 gr 44 or 45 bullet is a heavy weight handgun bullet, and it is, wouldn't it weigh just as much in a 50 caliber? 

  Since  your cartridge is a bit shorter, I'd recommend going with the 350 LFN.  It won't let you down on anything from mice to moose+.

  For target loads crimp over the ogive, and use the crimp if you feel it is mandatory for the heavy loads.  However, crimps ruin brass and do no good in single shot guns.  Just seat the bullet out till the lube is barely covered and load it up to Linebaugh power or more, or to whatever your recoil tolerance is.

[HHI 812]

Is there a reason for crimping over the ogive in the target load?

[Veral]

  Two reasons, and I'm glad you asked!

  1.  Seating deep lets you compress or confine the powder for much higher efficiency and reduction of muzzle blast.  Since velocities will be lower, bullet jump to rifling won't be a detrimental factor.

  2.  It marks your loads so you'll never accidentally put a heavy hard kicking ear breaking load in without earmuffs on!  Or, maybe worse, go to a bear fight with a rabbit load!

[HHI 812]

Veral,
What is a "SAFE" way of working out a target load. Not much data on this cartridge? Would Titegroup work or Unique powder work? Or suggestions on type powder? Does it matter how deep into the case I seat the bullet and how much crimp over the ogive?
Thanks,
Dennis

[Veral]

  When I'm more interested in a subdued report, than in power, I seat as deep as possible without bulging the brass too much to let it chamber easy.

  I see no problem safety wise with any powder, as long as you start light and work up till you start seeing pressure signs.  I have even used blank powder which is considered too fast for any type of bullet load.  Use either of those powders if you have them, but if you are going to go out and buy some, I recommend Hodgen Universal.

[HHI 812]

You think these target loads will shoot out to 100 yards accurately? I know its no bottleneck case, but is it capable?

[Veral]

  Definately if the bullets aren't stripping when they hit the rifling.  If using a real fast powder causes bullets to strip at the velocity desired, select a slower burning one so the bullet doesn't get such a sharp takoff, and higher velocities will be possible.

[HHI 812]

Veral,
Got to test some of the 350 LFN GC and 350 WFN GC. The LFN's grouped better on the average for me. One LFN load that grouped very well, averaged 1267 fps. Another LFN load did 1410 fps, but didn't group as well. Should I go for more power with less accuracy or go for the better accuracy with slightly less velocity. Going to stick with the LFN's. Would the 143 fps make that much difference in killing power?
Thanks,
Dennis

[Veral]

  To know the killing power of a flatnosed non expanding bullet calculate meplat diameter in  thousandths X Velocity and divide it by 4.  This gives displacement velocity (DV).  Don't go over 140.  130 gives maximum kill speed.  You'll probably get it with well under 1200 fps, but your most accurate load would be fine.

[HHI 812]

Veral,
Noticed on another post, you said that your WFN design stands alone, if one had to anchor game as quickly as possible. Is there really a difference between a .511" LFN vs. .511" WFN effectiveness, if the velocity for the LFN vs. the velocity of the WFN, is loaded so their DV values are equal? Example, what would be the difference between say a .511" 350 GC LFN @ 1368 fps vs. a .511" 350 GC WFN @1238 fps for hunting  Alaskan big game like moose or big bear?
Thanks,
Dennis

[Veral]

  I gave the DV formula above you rpost so won't bother calculating what it is with the velocities you gave.  The object is to find velocities with each with produce the same DV and at that speed, whatever it is for both, performance on game will be virtually identical.  To take that a few steps farther, calculate DV for a 44 and .512 bullets, and match them.  Performance on game will be identical, except if one bullet is heavier it will give more bone breaking punch.  As for penetration on game up to large bears one would be hard pressed to find a difference if real large bones aren't hit, except by digging in the dirt where the bullets hit to see which did the most landscaping! -- I have no reports regarding landscaping potential after penetration though, as it seems everyone is to tired to do the scientific work after skinning and packing their game out.

[HHI 812]

After calculating various DV's, even a .357LFN  can outdo the .510 if I can get a high enough velocity to get a higher DV?  So I wonder why we even need to go to bigger calibers for more killing power, when a higher velocity, WFN/OWC smaller caliber chambering can be used with a whole lot less expense and recoil. So going against a big boned grizzly bear with a .357 LFN will hit just as hard as a .510 caliber if their DV's are the same? Wouldn't a heavy weight OWC GC .358" be a better thumper because of its wide meplat?

[Scott T]

It does not work that way, unfortunately.  No free lunch and the heavier bullet will still perform better.

Good luck!

[HHI 812]

Scott T,
But if weights were the same, say the .357 was a 300 grainer, and the .510" also a 300 grainer, and DV's were the same, shouldn't the 357" hit as hard as the .511"? In fact, the .357" would have more sectional density! I realize not a whole lot of folks would want to face a griz with a .357, but with the DV formula, it should hit just as hard or possibly harder if it had a higher DV. Just seems with meplat and velocity jiggling, caliber really doesn't seem to play any part of the equation?
Thanks,
Dennis

[Scott T]

You are right that the smaller diameter bullet would have a higher sectional density.

However, what cartridge would one use to shove a 300gr .357 diameter bullet at the required speed? 

[Veral]

   If a heavy bone is struck it can only be broke with powder, preferably carried by weight than velocity.

   I should have been a bit more specific when I said equal DV's produce equal killing power.  We were discussing large caliber handguns, and need to keep the answer pretty much anchored to handguns.   If a big bone gets in the way, plenty of weight is mandatory.  I don't think there is a big bear ever made who's largest bones could resist 280 gr of lead pushed along with enough steam to get optimum DV.  So lets say 41 would be an absolute minimum caliber, and still not capable of matching a moderate 50 cal load.  44 will work comfortably and deliver all the kill power that will work for the fastest kill.  To be a bit more specific,  I'd be comfortable using 280 gr WFN's but would recommend 300 gr WFN or 320 gr WLN, loaded to max.  The 50's will produce a lot more power than that, but they won't kill better or quicker or more reliably.

   I'm not right person to ask "Why carry a larger handgun, or make them."  They aren't my idea, at all, and I find that customers who compare performance of the 475 and 50 cal revolvers alongside a 44 or 45, will dump the larger guns every time, for field use.  They are fun to buldoze dirt and rocks with.

[HHI 812]

Veral,
So weight does help, and is your preference over velocity.

Seems DV seems to play a big part. So power of a cartridge, is different than killing better, speed and reliability? Logic would be to preferably shoot a more controllable cartridge, so one can better place ones shots. Always thought caliber always gained a lot as you went bigger in diameter, but should have known from the past, that your WFN/WLN changes a lot of things. Just figured that if say a .50 cal is too light in weight, one would lose a lot of sectional density, resulting in a loss of penetration. But then again, what minimum penetration does one really need to break the shoulder of a charging grizzly? Again, doesn't it depend on caliber and its weight?

You stated for the .44, that you would be comfortable with a 280 WFN, but would prefer a 300 WFN or 320 WLN loaded to max.

Loaded to max you meant 125 DV?

For the .45 cal, what weight WFN would you be comfortable with, and what weight WFN and WLN would you recommend?


In using your DV formula, I multiply the DV I want X 4, then divide this answer by the meplat diameter. ie DV of 130 X 4=520, then divided by .380(.510"-.130" for a .510" LFN bullet) for a target velocity of 1368 fps, when I'm working out my loads.

[Veral]

  Yes by loaded to max I mean 125 DV, which is about what will be delivered with those two heavy WFN/WLN's loaded at close to full working pressure.  By running the weight up the wound will stay closer to the same size all the way through the animal, even after large bones are hit, because velocity stays up better than with a lighter bullet.

  For 45 Colt, depending on the type of revolver,  use the same weights, or if max power is wanted, one can do do the same thing with 25 grains more lead in the Blackhawks, 50 grains more in the high pressure guns, 100 gr more with the 454.  But keep in mind, with the big power, you'll get a lot of pain just to see your bullets do landscaping after leaving the animal.