Author Topic: 45-70 Loads  (Read 1767 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Varmint Hunter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 665
45-70 Loads
« on: April 05, 2008, 01:03:40 PM »
I will be loading soon for the 20" Katahdin barrel on my ProHunter. I intend to use the Level II loads intended for the Marlin 1895. I am curious, however, have any of you guys used the Level III loads that are intended for the Ruger #1, in your Encores?

Does any one know what T/C's  position is on 45-70 loads for the Encores?

Offline Lone Star

  • Reformed Gunwriter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2359
  • Gender: Male
Re: 45-70 Loads
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2008, 04:56:05 PM »
T/C recommends "Marlin loads" only.  The only problem is, there are various levels of "Marlin loads".  You tell me which load you should use.

Hornady - 40,00 psi
Hodgdon - 40,000 psi
Speer - 28,000 CUP
Lyman - 28,000 CUP
Sierra - Marlin and Ruger loads are the same pressure
(In the .45-70 case, psi = CUP)


.

Offline KN

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1962
Re: 45-70 Loads
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2008, 12:50:15 PM »
I use them all the time. I figure if they chamber for the 450 marlin then it can handle the ruger loads.   KN

Offline Varmint Hunter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 665
Re: 45-70 Loads
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2008, 03:57:52 PM »
I use them all the time. I figure if they chamber for the 450 marlin then it can handle the ruger loads.   KN

Encore's are chambered for the 450 Marlin cartridge?

Offline quickdtoo

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (149)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43301
  • Gender: Male
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Varmint Hunter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 665
Re: 45-70 Loads
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2008, 01:23:28 PM »
Yup, and a lot more!  ;)
Tim
http://www.tcarms.com/customShop/chart_encore_rifle.php
http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/encoreRifleCharts.php

416 Rem !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o I'd like to meet the guy who shoots an Encore in 416 Rem.

I guess Level III 45-70 loads are not as extreme in the Encore as I originally thought. I'm not interested in shooting them but apparently the gun can handle em'.

Offline Gary paugh

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 135
Re: 45-70 Loads
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2008, 03:45:02 AM »
I load a 350 bullet to 2000fps in my encore no problems.

Offline Coltdriver

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 89
Re: 45-70 Loads
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2008, 04:55:16 PM »
CUP and PSI are two totally different measurements.  They are definitely not interchangeable.

The highest CUP that Lyman's 48th shows for a Marlin is in the 24 to 27000 CUP range.

The Ruger loads run between 35000 and 39000 CUP.  If TC recommends Marlin class or Level II loads only then I would never exceed them.

Offline LONGTOM

  • Trade Count: (391)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4644
  • Gender: Male
  • IF ONLY I COULD GO BACK-I WOULD BE A MOUNTAIN MAN!
Re: 45-70 Loads
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2008, 05:09:25 PM »
I find that hard to believe giving the fact that TC loads several more intense chamberings than the 45-70.


LONGTOM
NRA Benefactor Life Member
NAHC Life Member
NRA Member-JAMES MADISON BRIGADE
IWLA Member
NRA/ILA Member
CCRKBA Member
US OLIMPIC SHOOTING TEAM supporter

"THE TREE OF LIBERTY FROM TIME TO TIME MUST BE REFRESHED WITH THE BLOOD OF PATRIOTS AND TYRANTS".
THOMAS JEFFERSON

That my two young sons may never have to know the horrors of war. 

I will stand for your rights as my forefathers did before me!
My thanks to those who have, are and will stand for mine!
To those in the military, I salute you!

LONGTOM 9-25-07

Offline EdK

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 499
Re: 45-70 Loads
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2008, 02:43:17 AM »
All who post the Encore can probably handle the Ruger-only 45-70 loads are likely correct. I find this discussion comes up here in threads on GBO all the time. Still, if someone posts general loads that are not published powder/bullet mfg. book loads they are scolded and the post is typically deleted. How is this any different? Through reasonable logic it is being determined that the firearm will probably handle the load but really there is no proof that it will...

Offline Lone Star

  • Reformed Gunwriter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2359
  • Gender: Male
Re: 45-70 Loads
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2008, 12:52:56 PM »
Quote
CUP and PSI are two totally different measurements.  They are definitely not interchangeable.

They definitely are  interchangeable in the 45-70 case, at least according to Alliant(Hercules).  CUP=psi in that cartridge.


Quote
The Ruger loads run between 35000 and 39000 CUP.

Nope, not true at all. 

Hornady lists "Ruger loads" at 50,000 cup. 
Hodgdon at 50,000 cup.
Lyman at 40,000 cup.
Speer at 35,000 cup.

Quote
All who post the Encore can probably handle the Ruger-only 45-70 loads are likely correct.

Oh really?   Now read the above and tell me what a "Ruger level load" is....




.

Offline EdK

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 499
Re: 45-70 Loads
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2008, 01:47:16 AM »
Lone Star: I think we are really in agreement here... I do not advocate firing Ruger-only loads in the Encore


Hornady lists "Ruger loads" at 50,000 cup. 
Hodgdon at 50,000 cup.
Lyman at 40,000 cup.
Speer at 35,000 cup.

Quote
All who post the Encore can probably handle the Ruger-only 45-70 loads are likely correct.

Oh really?   Now read the above and tell me what a "Ruger level load" is....


Yes, I did make that statement and still stand behind it. I then went on to say that actually doing so is akin to posting hot Pet Loads on this board that are above book loads and encouraging others to use them: there is no way to be sure they are safe. Similarly there is no way to know that any Ruger-only load is safe to use in an Encore. After all, the powder manufacturers publish them for the Ruger-only!

Offline Lone Star

  • Reformed Gunwriter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2359
  • Gender: Male
Re: 45-70 Loads
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2008, 04:05:56 PM »
EdK, I guess I misunderstood you.   But the Speer "Ruger load" is actually of lower pressure  than the Hornady "Marlin-level" load - would you say that this "Ruger load" is somehow unsafe in an Encore?  I bet not. 
Regardless, my main point is there is no consensus on what pressure constitutes a "Ruger-level" load, and for that matter little consensus on what firearms are suitable for them.

Speer........Ruger No1 and No3, modern Browning M1885 and M98 Mausers
Hornady....Ruger No1, Browning 78, Wickliffe and Siamese Mauser
Lyman.......Ruger No1 and No3 and M98
Hodgdon...Modern rifles
Accurate....Ruger, Marlin, Sharps, Winchester
Sierra........Marlin 1895, Ruger No1 and No3, Siamese Mauser
Alliant........Modern manufacture


.

Offline Redhawk1

  • Life time NRA Supporter.
  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (78)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10748
  • Gender: Male
Re: 45-70 Loads
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2008, 01:35:58 PM »
Yup, and a lot more!  ;)
Tim
http://www.tcarms.com/customShop/chart_encore_rifle.php
http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/encoreRifleCharts.php

416 Rem !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o I'd like to meet the guy who shoots an Encore in 416 Rem.

I guess Level III 45-70 loads are not as extreme in the Encore as I originally thought. I'm not interested in shooting them but apparently the gun can handle em'.

I have not seen a 416 Rem, but I had a 416 Rigby which holds about 20 more gr. of powder then the 416 Rem. I took a Asian Water Buffalo with it.
If you want I can send you the pic's. I am to lazy to learn to post pic's

Recoil was rough, but manageable.

If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

Endowment Life Member of the NRA
Life Member NA

Offline Varmint Hunter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 665
Re: 45-70 Loads
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2008, 03:13:12 PM »
The 416 Rem & the 416 Rigby are both listed in the link provided.


Yup, and a lot more!  ;)
Tim
http://www.tcarms.com/customShop/chart_encore_rifle.php
http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/encoreRifleCharts.php

416 Rem !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o I'd like to meet the guy who shoots an Encore in 416 Rem.

I guess Level III 45-70 loads are not as extreme in the Encore as I originally thought. I'm not interested in shooting them but apparently the gun can handle em'.

I have not seen a 416 Rem, but I had a 416 Rigby which holds about 20 more gr. of powder then the 416 Rem. I took a Asian Water Buffalo with it.
If you want I can send you the pic's. I am to lazy to learn to post pic's

Recoil was rough, but manageable.



Offline Redhawk1

  • Life time NRA Supporter.
  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (78)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10748
  • Gender: Male
Re: 45-70 Loads
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2008, 02:53:31 AM »
OK I seen it listed. It was in the second row...  The 416 Rigby and 416 Remington are very close in ballistics. I perfer the 416 Rigby, it works at lower pressures and hold a lot more powder.
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

Endowment Life Member of the NRA
Life Member NA

Offline Varmint Hunter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 665
Re: 45-70 Loads
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2008, 08:38:51 AM »
Well - I've got quite a few rounds down the 45-70 Katahdin bbl. It seems to prefer 50.0gr of IMR 4198 under the (old style) Hornady 300gr HP. I've got groups between 1.1" & 1.75" @ 100yds while using a zero magnification Nikon red dot sight.

I'm still experimenting with the Barnes 300gr TSX which I'll be using for bear hunting in a few weeks.  Charges of IMR4198 between 45.0 and 47.0 look pretty good so far. Awful expensive to work up loads with this bullet but it is an impressive bullet that expands readily and retains 100% of its weight.

I hope I can find a bear big enough to stop one. :o ;D :o

Offline Varmint Hunter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 665
Re: 45-70 Loads
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2008, 08:13:36 AM »
UPDATE:

While the rifle did shoot the groups listed above it now seems more like a fluke than anything else. I eventually completed several range sessions with the Katahdin. The rifle will regularly print the Hornady 300HP into a 3.5" horizontal group. Vertical dispersion is usually about half of that. The 300 TSX shoots about the same and the 350gr FP bullet shoots slightly better. So far I am rather disappointed in the accuracy of the rifle.

Either way I've got no time left. I'm leaving for the NW mountains of Maine in the morning. The rifle shoots "adequately" for 100 yd shots at bears, which is farther than I am likely to shoot anyway.

Stock, forearm and optic mounts are all tight. Trigger is fully tuned. Any ideas as to why this ProHunter will no shoot up to par?

Offline woodchukhntr

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (108)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2359
Re: 45-70 Loads
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2008, 03:38:34 PM »
Well, when my guns don't shoot up to par, I usually find out that it is the "loose nut behind the trigger"  :D

All seriousness aside, I wouldn't consider anything wrong with 1.1" to 1.75" with zero magnification.  After all, it's not a varmint rifle!  But if you don't like it and want to give it away, put me first on the list.

Offline Lone Star

  • Reformed Gunwriter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2359
  • Gender: Male
Re: 45-70 Loads
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2008, 06:21:42 AM »
Quote
...I wouldn't consider anything wrong with 1.1" to 1.75" with zero magnification.  After all, it's not a varmint rifle...
No, but the poster is getting 3.5" groups, not 1.1" groups.  I too would only be marginally happy with that performance, as I know the cartridge is capable of far more accuracy, as are most T/C rifles. The OP has checked the usual culprits - loose screws and defective optics.  We don't know if he has been adequately cleaning his bore, or if he is waiting between groups for the barrel to cool.  In my stronger .45-70s I found better accuracy with the 300HPs with over 50 grains of IMR4198 - which unfortunately is above the usual "Marlin-level" loads.  The OP could try a different powder, like IMR3031 or IMR4227 (my best 300-grain accuracy in a Contender carbine is with BlueDot of all things.  Velocity is lower at safe loads, but accuracy has been top notch).  He could try crimping and not crimping, and different seating depths. 

But right now I wish him luck on his hunting trip.  Even 3.5" groups will get him a bear if he holds right....


.

Offline Varmint Hunter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 665
Re: 45-70 Loads
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2008, 02:01:47 PM »
UPDATE:

My outfitter insisted that all hunters range test their rifles before anyone went afield. They put a folded napkin on a piece of plywood and placed it at 50 yards. First shot out of the ProHunter put the 350gr FP squarely in the center of the napkin - no problem. Nikon red-dot worked fine.  (Ultimately, all shot opportunities were from point blank to about 50 yards depending on the stand set-up.)

The lodge was nice but the hunting was poor. Very few hunters even saw a bear during the first few days. By Friday morning 7 hunters took only 2 bears. One was under 100lbs and the other was about 170lbs. The outfitter did not have a scale. ::) Oddly enough, he didn't skin bears either. A taxidermist estimated the weight of the second bear.

I had an average size bear come in to the bait around sunset but it never presented a decent shot. The bait was poorly set-up and the bear was smart enough to work the pail from behind while staying in the brush.

To answer a few posted questions:

The Katahdin barrel was cleaned every 20-30 rounds after break-in.
The barrel was not shot hot. It was actually difficult to get any heat to build up in this fat little barrel with the large bore diameter.
I used RE7, H335 and IMR 4198 with similar results. Most of the shooting was with the IMR 4198 @ various levels.
All bullets were crimped.
Switching to a 3x9 rifle scope did little to reduce group size. The red-dot was remounted for hunting.

I'll be heading out again in the fall and hope to get this rifle shooting < 2moa before that time.