Author Topic: Whats wrong with the 30-30????? (Read 2013 times)

sport240 · « **on:** July 09, 2003, 06:53:48 PM »

The more I read here, the more I see some of you ranting and raving about 44-40's, 444's, 45-70's for hunting medium sized game such as deer.....but what is so wrong about the 30-30???

Especially when I read ballistic charts that puts the 30-30 way above the others (except for the 45-70...but at 300gr that is some lead above the 150gr or 170gr of the 30-30)

I am a fan and a true believer in the 30-30....and I consider it to be the ideal deer round under 150yds (which I would suspect to be the case in more than 80% of the shots ever taken)

Please tell me why you guy's seem to despise the 30-30 so much?

?

Heck...I've seen deer fall to 38-55's, 38-40's, 357's and even 00 Buck!!!...Why oh why does the 30-30 have such a dark image?

Please help me dispel this ill-fated lore....

Sport240

roberthonike · « **Reply #1 on:** July 09, 2003, 09:04:09 PM »

I don't think they dislike the 30/30 round, they are just bored with it for a while. Trends come and go, but the good old stuff survives. On another forum I had people all over me telling me about why their pet cartridge was better than my other favorite, the 6.5X55. I could tell they had never seen one, did not understand the good parts like excellent ballistic coefficient,etc. They only look at "horsepower". You hang in with your thutty thutty. It won't fail you.
Bob

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #2 on:** July 09, 2003, 11:59:56 PM »

ive shot quite a few deer with the 3030 but now I stickly use cast bullet and the .30s are a little small. I put a minimum for cast at a .35 rem.

ButlerFord45 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 10, 2003, 12:04:10 AM »

Sport, I agree with you and Robert, the 30-30 is a wonderful old round that has killed many critters and cans.
The following is a reply I made last year as to why I believe many concider the 30-30 to be inadequate:

"I have a theory about the 30-30 and the wounded deer. Basicly winchester has made, what, over 8 million '94's most in 30-30, marlin mabye not quite that many but a LARGE number. Obviously millions of people decided to give hunting a try, it would seem that americas number one choice was a lever 30-30, with the majority nod going to winchester. Most of these people are neither hunters nor shooters, they just go out to the woods with their new out west looking gun and take foolish shots at fleeing game, thus the 30-30 won't kill a deer shot in the butt so it is not addequate for hunting deer. Bull Pucky!!! There is not an animal on this planet the 30-30 will not kill with a proper stalk to within an appropriate range accompanied by a well place shot. I have no intention of indicating that there are not better choices for various game, just that the 30-30 is an effective round in the hands of a competent hunter. It is much more economical to practice with than a 460 Weatherby, and just as lethal when used properly.

Well, anyway, it's just a theory"

I have had this theory for a long time

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #4 on:** July 10, 2003, 12:10:07 AM »

The thirty thirty has killed more deer for me than any other cartridge. I have used cast bullets on a number of them as well.
Obviously, I like the round, and the '94 carbine that fires it

roberthonike · « **Reply #5 on:** July 10, 2003, 12:19:53 AM »

Your greybeard is scruffier than mine but my hat is scruffier than yours.
If any one wants to use cast bullets in 30/30 they might want to mess around with two piece bullet idea. There are some old molds around, or you can try double pour, pure lead in first followed by linotype or similar right after. I did get a little weight variation this way and some bad joints, but got enough good ones for sight in and hunting. They expand pretty good. Also used gas check. The old molds, by the way left an interlock shape on nose to secure two pieces. I bet if you could make a swage you could go to town with this. Bob

Cabin4 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 10, 2003, 12:23:59 AM »

Theres absolutly notin wrong with a good ol thuty-thuty. I own one in a win 94 and would not give it up. It shoots very well and kills game. It will always have a place on my gun rack.

What more can you ask for from a gun that sells new for as cheap as $265 and ammo as cheap as $7 a box. Its a great pricing combo that has offered and or allowed countless people to participate is this great tradition.

Long live the thuty-thuty.

roberthonike · « **Reply #7 on:** July 10, 2003, 12:54:49 AM »

I paid $109.95 for my favorite. No point in getting a new one to bang around in a fiberglass canoe. Also, new one has POLITICALLY CORRECT SAFETY. I am never POLITICALLY CORRECT. House broke, maybe but never PC.
Back to cast bullets. 30/30 is a good candidate for getting started in reloading. If you use cases in one rifle, you only neck size. Cast bullet loads are kind to cases. The mold I use is an old Guy Loverin design 160 grain gas check. You don't need to size bullets from my mold. They come out .308 . Tumble bullets in liquid lube, let'em dry and load'em. Mike bullets you come up with. This might not work in all situations. Bob

Mikey · « **Reply #8 on:** July 10, 2003, 03:49:41 AM »

Sport: there's nothing wrong with the 30-30, just as there is nothing wrong with the 6.5 Swede, the old 30-06, the 45-70, the 33 WCF, the 38-55, or any of the older rounds. I haven't seen one new cartridge in the last 25 years that did anything better than any of the older ones do. I have a 1923 vintage Winchester 94 in 30-30 and I won't get rid of it, no matter how many 444s I get. And that's the way it is. Mikey.

Ron T. · « **Reply #9 on:** July 10, 2003, 04:55:29 AM »

Sport

Even though I hunt deer with a Savage Model 99 in .300 Savage caliber, I agree with everything you said about the .30/30 cartridge. It is plenty adequate for deer under 150 yards.

In Pennsylvania's Moshannon State Forest where I hunt, the average shot at a deer is LESS than 80 yards, according to statistics... so the dear (an unintended pun) ol' .30/30 is MORE than adequate for the kind of shots most of us take at deer in the east.

I really doubt that most hunters loath the good ol .30/30, I think its more of the fact so many people are trendy these days and want the latest super-duper-monster magnum. But if I had to chose between a .300 Super Magnum or a .30/30 for a deer rifle, Id choose the .30/30 cause deer havent started growing armor plate and the old calibers are still very adequate for Americas favorite big game animal as long as you get good bullet placement and the range isnt too great.

I have to laugh when I read what some of these bozos write about their .300 Super Magnum deer rifles because Ive seen them at my clubs rifle range trying to hit SOMEWHERE on the target paper at 100 yards while their Super Magnum tries to kick their brains out as they shoot it off the bench rest.

After I watch these hot-shots for a while, I fire my little ol .300 Savage with its 150 grain bullet @ 2675 fps and its mere 14 ft/lbs of recoil compared to their 28-30 ft/lbs of recoil and I secretly smile. :twisted:

Strength & Honor

Ron T.

Bullseye · « **Reply #10 on:** July 10, 2003, 01:28:49 PM »

Simply said in my opinion, ain't nothing wrong with it. I am even shooting in a Contender handgun and it is quickly becoming one of my favorite barrels.

GooseGestapo · « **Reply #11 on:** July 11, 2003, 03:40:53 AM »

Having owned several, shot, loaded for, and killed several deer with the .30/30, and being a career Conservation officer having seen a multitude of deer shot with a .30/30 including other game to include a bear or two, I have a theory (explantion?) on why the .30/30 is occasionally (frequently) "snubbed".
BULLET CONSTRUCTION !
What other posters have said is all true. However, because of how many guns and people have used the gun, and mutitude of purposes it has been put to, some bad ammo has gotten out. Not that it was "bad" but it was not suited for its actual use:
Example......
A friend was using his '94 Trapper (16.5" bbl) as a short range "brush" gun hunting deer in west Ga. Most deer shot were does, going 100-140lbs. He was encountering a lot of "lost" deer, with them running off with good hits only to be lost in dense pine "regenerating" cut-overs. He approached me for some "heavier" bullets for more "smack" knowing I was a bullet caster and reloader. I asked for what he was using them for. I immediately told him he was going the "WRONG WAY"! I recommended for him to use a 125gr Sierra HP, over a specified powder and weight (H-322). He loaded up some bullets I gave him, and got a chance to shoot a deer two days later. He called me and related that the damage inflicted was greater than that he got from his .25/06 and the deer was the first he had ever dropped in its tracks with a heart/lung shot.

To get to the point, most all of the 150gr and 170gr bullets are constructed too heavily for most of the deer and antelope for which the .30/30 is primarily used for.
My older brother spent a lot of his Air Force career in Alaska, Maine, and Montana. There he saw a lot of Moose, and Bear that had been shot with the .30/30, primarily with 170gr Rem Cor-lokts and Federal/Nosler 170gr Partitions. He thereafter has used either a 125 Sieerra, 130gr Speer or Hornady 150gr bullets exclusively for deer as these are the "softer" bullets. This past year he shot two deer moments apart with a chrono'd 2,300fps load with a Hornady 150gr SP from his vintage '94. One penetrated over 24" of deer before stopping against the pelvis from a frontal shot, the other also a frontal shot with a slightly different angle, completely penetrated the deer exiting the far-end offside hindquarter after penetrating over 24" of deer. Needless to say the .30/30 is more than adequately powerful for deer, it's just the bullets often fail to adequately expand due to them being made for purposes besides the killing of lightly built deer.
Kinda like saying that a Tractor is no good for SCCA sports car racing.....Duh!, it ain't built for dat!
Use proper bullets and the .30/30 is useful for most anything you can imagine using it for, from gophers to grizzly even Whales! (though definitely not a first or second choice for either)
My brother got a newfound respect for it while investigating a self-defense kill on a grizzly on an A-F base in the early'80s. Fella had killed a Moose and had gone back next day to finish packing out carcass. A 700-800lb Griz had found it and took offense at being disturbed. Two quick shots from .30/30 ended the argument with one shot (second fired) hitting griz in nose and exiting back of skull. First shot fired at charging bear had struck neck left of cheek and penetrated length wise lodging in paunch of Griz! and would have been a fatal shot, but would have taken a few too many moments to take effect. Ammo was Federal premium 170gr partitions. Hunter related he could never have made either shot with the .338 WinMag. he had used the day previous to kill moose as gun didn't "handle quick enough!". He also talked to some of the local's (native indians) who used an old rusty '94 and whatever ammo was around for killing whales and seals during seasons. He also watched a fella shooting prararie dogs one day while in Montana with rusty old '94. We ended up going back later and helping out with killing a few too! (Sorry, my .257 Robt. is much better P-D gun!)
End of long story, use correct bullets/ammo.
I can't imagine how much better the .30/30's reputation would have been if all these years it had been loaded like the newer Winchester 150 extra power load has been. What few game I've seen/heard of shot with this load, reports have been ecstatic. (150gr @ 2,350fps from 20" bbl, 2,450fps from 24"bbl)
We'll probably be having this same discussion go around another 100yrs from now !

les hemby · « **Reply #12 on:** July 13, 2003, 02:56:52 PM »

this is exactly what i am hoping for in bullet dept. i do not handload yet so will be using factory 125gr. hp in a marlin 336 a 16.25 contender and a 14'' contender for deer this year as i feel 150 and 170 would be better for hogs. has anyone had any prior experience with factory 125 if not i will post on them after deer season. i think i can get better expansion out of 125

roberthonike · « **Reply #13 on:** July 13, 2003, 03:43:13 PM »

If you reload, and are careful, you can use some of the faster expanding spitzer bullets for 30/30. THEY CAN'T BE LOADED IN MAGAZINE. With the gun sighted in for them and loaded directly into the chamber you can get a flatter trajectory and better transfer of energy. If you get careless and confused when you get a shot, don't try this. You will have round nose loads in tube for follow up, and they will probably hit pretty close at normal ranges.

les hemby · « **Reply #14 on:** July 13, 2003, 03:56:00 PM »

remington makes some 125gr. without reloading they are round point for tube mags i just figured they would be built not as strong i think they will work better until i start reloading. hollowpoint should expand better on thin skin animals

GooseGestapo · « **Reply #15 on:** July 17, 2003, 03:50:10 AM »

Les,
It's Federal that loads the 125gr bullet. It is the Sierra 125 hp, or was until Blount bought out Federal 2 years ago. They will probably change over to the 130gr Speer FNSP. I think that Speer loads the 130gr in the Speer Nitrex line. Either of these are outstanding deer loads. Sierra specfically states in their books that this HP is developed using a thicker jacket and harder lead core specifically for deer hunting with the .30wcf. The Speer bullet though has a bit higher ballistic coefficient, and therefore would be better for the 150+yard shots. As far as I know, Remington only load the 150grRNC-L, and 170grRNCL, and I've seen the 50gr Sabot loads still around (Accelerator's). Winchester used to sell a 150gr "Open-point" hollow point that was superbe on 100-225lb. deer when you could find them. Haven't seen any for 10+years though.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #16 on:** July 18, 2003, 05:39:03 AM »

A very slight correction, Robert.

If you use pointed bullets in a tube magazine, you can only put one cartridge in the mag. A two shooter is a lot better than a one shooter.

les hemby · « **Reply #17 on:** July 19, 2003, 02:32:20 PM »

thanks for info that was helpful

roberthonike · « **Reply #18 on:** July 19, 2003, 10:58:30 PM »

Maybe I didn't go into detail enough. If you load pointed load in chamber you can put as many round nose loads in mag tube as it will hold.

vmaxx · « **Reply #19 on:** July 24, 2003, 01:54:24 PM »

I have a Marlin 336-30/30 in stainless and she's a beauty. Great shooter too. I have heavier equitment for shooting deer but the 30/30 is a little handier in the woods where the cover is dense. I'm all for the 30/30.