Author Topic: Interested in swaging questions (Read 1055 times)

GrizzLeeBear · « **on:** July 18, 2003, 06:54:55 AM »

Hello everyone, new here. I frequent another message board and a discussion came up by someone that has started swaging some of his own muzzleloader bullets. I was totally unaware that you could actually get into swaging for hundreds of dollars instead of tens of thousands! I have been through the Corbin site and the RCE (is that correct?) site. This sure looks interesting and I have some questions that I thought some experienced swagers could answer.
Anyway, what is the velocity limits of pure lead swaged bullets with the base guards? The Corbin sight indicates that they can be shot up to 1400 fps without any lube and no leading. Is that true? If so, it would sure be a cool way to play around with different weight bullets for handguns and muzzleloaders. Can you heat treat pure lead swaged bullets, or does there need to be antimony and/or arsenic in the lead for the heat treating to work? Have any of you worked with the 2% antimony lead wire?
Also, looking through both sites I see that the Walnut Hill press is a little less expensive than the S press. Are there any drawbacks to the WH vs the S press? Can the WH be used for reloading too, like the S? Are the dies interchangable? What kind of delivery times is there with each company?
Also they show .458 as the limit of these presses. Can .50 cal. pure lead bullets (for muzzleloaders) be made on these presses?
Thanks for any help, I hope this isn't to many questions, but I want to hear from people that are actually using this stuff. The idea of making my own bullets without all the issues of molten lead is sure interesting!

hunter280man · « **Reply #1 on:** July 18, 2003, 04:51:40 PM »

Well hellow grizz! I figured if you could have your first post here I should do the same.

I'm the other fella he's refering to. Hunter280man/Mark

contendernut · « **Reply #2 on:** July 19, 2003, 05:20:53 AM »

GrizzLeeBear,

The WH press is short stroke only and not for reloading. It will work with Corbin Co. S-dies using an adapter. WH dies will not work in the S-Press.

Underclocked · « **Reply #3 on:** July 19, 2003, 07:47:20 AM »

Hey guys, I read over here on the swaging forum a lot but rarely post anything. Just a curious onlooker that might someday......

Anyway, glad you found your way over here SOMEHOW.

Donna · « **Reply #4 on:** July 19, 2003, 12:31:01 PM »

Hello GrizzLeeBear,

Glad to have you at this forum. Yes it is the RCE Co. Dave Corbin owns and runs Corbin Manufacturing and Supply, Inc. and his brother Richard Corbin broke off and started his own company RCE Co.

Theoretically a base guard lead bullet could achieve any jacketed bullet velocity because the copper disc at the base of the bullet forms into the rifling of the barrel and scrapes the lead clear of the rifling but there probably will be an upper velocity limit in practice. This upper limit is best found by you that is part of the fun.

Pure lead is what is called a dead metal, it does not heat treat or have any elasticity of itself, it needs some other material added to it to give lead the heat treating and elasticity properties.

If you were to buy a new swaging press for the first time I would say get the Walnut Hill press. The S-press has a stop pin that weakens the press and the ram has a higher probability to experience what is called lateral compression because of more metal being cut away to allow a larger diameter stop pin. The Walnut Hill press cannot do reloading were as the S-press can perform reloading. Both presses has the ability to make simple jacketed .458 caliber bullets, they should be able to make a .50 caliber lead bullet. But for the real scoop on this give Dave or Richard a call and ask them.

:-D Swaging is definitely an interesting and fun activity to do. :-D

Donna

contendernut · « **Reply #5 on:** July 20, 2003, 03:55:22 PM »

Donna,

Since you upgraded your SII to S press, I have a couple questions. Did you have Dave build you new ejection punches or are you using the short stop pin? I find that the short pin with the old style ejection punches doesn't work well in the update. The new stop pin is larger and I have to tape the short pin in to work with my old style dies. I was thinking of cutting one of the new stop pins to the correct length so it fits the hole with the old style ejection punches.

Donna · « **Reply #6 on:** July 20, 2003, 06:05:42 PM »

Hello contendernut,

If you are using the old style stop pin with the S-press or the up graded press to an S-press than why did you get an up grade in the first place? The new pin is to help correct a weakness in the press. Yes, you have to have Dave make a new ejection internal punch for all your point forming dies that uses the stop pin to hold the ejection punch stationary. If you had the upgrade done to your press then I believe Dave will replace the ejection punches for free, he did with mine.

The new stop pin in addition to being longer it is also larger in diameter. This is done to give it greater strength and the pin now goes all the way through the ram and into the other side of the press for even greater strength.

Donna

contendernut · « **Reply #7 on:** July 21, 2003, 03:02:53 AM »

Donna,

I bought my press when the 'S' press was first brought out. I've purchased a couple sets of used dies as well as a set of new dies from Dave. All came with the old style ejection punch.

GrizzLeeBear · « **Reply #8 on:** July 21, 2003, 04:07:28 AM »

Hunter280man, Underclocked, nice to see you guys here!

Donna, thanks for the good info. Yeah, thats kind of what I thought about heat treating lead. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook says that a very small arsenic content is key for heat treating. I'm curious about the velocity limit mainly for the possibility of swagging pistol bullets. 1400 fps is about the practical limit for the two calibers I am looking at (.357 and .41 mag) for hunting. I have heard horror stories about how bad swagged bullets lead in these "higher" velocity pistol rounds, especially in the forcing cones of revolvers. Target shooting rounds of course would probably only be about 800 - 1000 fps max. so leading with a pure lead BG bullet shouldn't pose a problem?
I was also curious to hear any results with the 2% antimony wire. If it works well in the press, I would think this would give you a little more "elbow" room on that max. velocity. I think wheel weights are about 3 - 4% antimony and have a Bh of about 9. So I'm thinking the 2% wire would be about Bh 7 or so? Might be interisting to see if bullets from the 2% wire could be heat treated too. I think it would be really cool to be able to crank out some real nice swaged bullets and then heat treat them so the were harder.

bfoster · « **Reply #9 on:** July 21, 2003, 05:47:55 AM »

I swage 1:160 lead bullets for use in a black powder muzzleloading double rifle with a pair of home made dies. The small amount of tin is added so that it is easier to get the well filled out and consistent weight cast bullets from which I start. My first swage reduces the band diameter of an an as cast Lyman #515141 to .5118" everywhere, reduces the base diameter to .499" for ease in starting the bullet square, and starts forming a hollow point. The second swage applies very slightly oversize rifling to the bullet so that it is easy to start, and finishes the hollow point.

My loading procedure makes use of a wad over the powder charge, this greatly improves the consistency of shooting (smaller groups). With a tallow and beeswax lube I'm able to shoot at ~ 1400 fps 'till I'm tired without significant leading.

Lead this soft can easily be swaged without a press. I use a very light mallet and so did many of the great 19th century target shooters. Care is required to strike the headed stem of the dies squarely, but a properly constructed die will prove quite forgiving of minor mistakes on your part. If you've not done so you might want to read The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rifle by Ned Roberts. There are pictures of old swages and other tooling used by the old timers.

Bob