Author Topic: 7.62x39 vs. 7.62x54R debate? (Read 15664 times)

Will52100 · « **on:** July 04, 2008, 04:23:16 PM »

Don't know if this have been disscused or not, pretty sure it has. Don't have the funds for either one, but would like to add to my wish list eigther one of the Romainian dragunov look alikes or a Bulgarian AK. I have a couple of Mosins, and would like to keep ammo simple and love the 7.62x54R round, but don't know much about the 7.62x39 round balistics wise. I've heard it compaired to the 30-30, but how accurate is that? Most shooting would be done from 300 yards max to around 100 yards.

Which would you chose and why? I'm leaning toward the Romanian dragunov version, but how well would it hold up and is it that much more powerfull than the short 7.62 AK round? I know it's basicly an AK design unlike the real Dragunov, but it's the only semi auto chambered in 7.62x54R I know of. If I could find an AK variant with say a 20-22" barrel that would be a differant story.

Also I'm a Lefty, how hard would eigther varient be to shoot? I know the scope on the dragunov is on the left side, how hard would it be to change the sights or put a scope inline?

At this time I don't reload for the nagant round, but may start, I reload for nearly everything else, but rite now surpluss ammo is too cheap and I don't have time.

Don't mean to stir the pot too much, but am interested in everybodies opinion.
Thanks,

tn_junk · « **Reply #1 on:** July 04, 2008, 04:32:02 PM »

I've owned both and the 7.62x45 is dang near 30-06 powerful while the 7.62x39 is almost, but not quite, .30-30. The 7.62x39 is fun to shoot, accurate as all get out and will take deer size game. The 7.62x54 that I had kicked like a mad mule and was nowhere as accurate as my SKS.
All depends on what you want.

alan

Will52100 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 04, 2008, 04:38:14 PM »

Thanks, I have tried my father's SKS, and it seems accurate. I have a M38 nagant and while it do kick a bit it's probably the most accurate rifle I've got as long as I do my part. Haven't done any side by side comparisons though.

277284 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 04, 2008, 07:54:03 PM »

I had the Romanian Dragonov (PSL-54C) with the 4X PSO or whatever. Even for a right hander my cheek would not touch the stock (scope too left). Mine with the best mag misfed(bolt over base) once every five rounds. Purchased new 8 months ago.

TribReady · « **Reply #4 on:** July 04, 2008, 08:08:31 PM »

Personally, we're talking about 2 different animals. The 7.62x54 is a full load, full bore, full round killing machine.
The 7.62x39 is a viable, killing cousin that has it's place.

Obviously the x39 is world known and used, however, I feel the x54 round exceeds it in every way.

Personally, I don't like either round

, but I would take a firearm in x54 over a x39 anyday.

277284 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 04, 2008, 08:45:10 PM »

Tribready, for just target shooting open sights at 100 yards I will take the Mosin Nagant 91/30 over the Mosin M38, M44 and the Romanian Dragonov that uses the same ammo. I also prefer the 91/30 over any AK or SKS that uses the smaller 7.62x39 for bull shooting.

Mikey · « **Reply #6 on:** July 05, 2008, 12:53:27 AM »

OK, you didn't say what you wanted to do with either of these calibers. As tn_junk and TriReady both provided, the x54 is a full length battle cartridge, the x39 is simply a shorter version. The x54 is on par with the 30-06, ballistically about halfway twixt the 308 and the 30-06. The x39 is at the lower end of the power scale of the 30-30. You can get both the x39 and 30-30 to fire a 150 gn slug at about 2200'/sec or possibly even better.

If you intend to hunt with the x54 you have any number of full length rifle or carbine options.

If you intend to hunt with the x39 your best bet is either a SKS or a Norinco hunting model which is basically a long barrelled AK but neither of those rifles or the x39 is really worth a dang beyond 150m from a huntin' perspective unless you have a rifle that can group under 2" at 200 yds. I do not recall ever seeing or hearing of a AK or SKS that would be accurate to 300 yds. At 100 yds each is probably a 4" rifle, maybe slightly better.

You can not 'in-line' scope a Druganov (or similar) reliably (scope mounts do not stabalize) and do not expect any real 300 yd accuracy from a 'Droog' - it is simply does nto compare or is any where near as accurate as a M-14. Kewl guns to look at and shoot, but not all that accurate - maybe with better quality ammo things might be different but...... Anyhow, the scope mounts on the Droog are on the left but the scope is centered over the bore. Rifle and scope come as a package but the scope is not the best or easiest to use. You might be able to re-scope with a better quality optic that could help in the accuracy department but you would have to tinker with that.

If you are a lefty and shoot the Kalashnikov, wear eye protection so an empty doesn't stick inna yu eyeball.......

I have an older Norinco Hunting Model that wears standard AK furniture. It is pretty accurate, giving me about 2" at 100 yds with good quality factory ammo. I tried to scope it once using a Druganov type side mount but with a stamped receiver I could not get the scope to stabalize and I could get better groups with the open sights than with the scope. Neat lookin' rifle though. HTH. Mikey.

Will52100 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 05, 2008, 03:28:56 AM »

Thanks. For the most part it would be a range gun, with hunting and varmit control(coyote and wild dog) the only real world use, with the posibility of home defense a low probability. When I say range gun, I don't mean preccison shooting, mainly hitting the steel targets or what not.

I've got a M38, and a Finnish M91, prefere the M38 due to size and handy ness, though from a rest my Finn will out shoot it with iron sights. I've got a scope and mount coming for the M38 to see what it's capable of.

One option I've though of is to convert an SKS to a pistol grip stock, maybe add a removable mag, probably not.

Interesting discussion and informative, Thanks guys.

Spanky · « **Reply #8 on:** July 05, 2008, 03:50:26 AM »

It's apples to oranges with these two.
Ballistically it really is like comparing the 30-30 to the 30-06.
I have two Mosin Nagant 91-30's, one is a full length standard rifle and one is a sporterized 20" barrel.
Both of my rifles are very accurate (the nod going to the full length barrel)

Spanky

tn_junk · « **Reply #9 on:** July 05, 2008, 05:56:41 AM »

I spent $39.99 for a pistol grip, black plastic, stock for my SKS and it was one of the better investments I have made.
Really makes a difference in shooting. I replaced the stock sights with a Peep and Glow front, and the gun can shoot a realistic 3" at 100 yards. Guess I am lucky in that my SKS (Norinco) has a really nice trigger and good barrel.

alan

1911crazy · « **Reply #10 on:** July 05, 2008, 10:20:35 AM »

We benchrested a while back my norinco sks paratrooper w/16" barrel(iron sites) and my norinco sks w/20" barrel(scoped). Using norinco ammo the paratrooper shot 1 1/2" groups @ 100yds with me and my son shooting it we got the same results. My 20" barreled sks shot under 1" groups @ 100yds but it shot tighter but the scopemounts failed as i adjusted the zero on the scope. I think it was under 3/4" or better but i'm not sure because the scope was loose. Since then i got a mosin nagant style scopemount thats rock solid but i haven't sighted it in yet. My gut feeling is it will go under 1/2" groups when i sight it in.

Some have said the white box winchester 7,62x39 ammo is just as accurate as the norinco ammo is too.

My russian izhmash saiga w/16" barrel in 308win will also shoot 1 1/2" groups @ 100yds too with iron sights.(AK47) Using south african 308 ball ammo.

I have shot my SVT-40 Tokarev and my M39 Finnish mosin but i can't remember the group sizes for the 7,62x54r round. My other mosins i just test fired.

fastbike · « **Reply #11 on:** July 07, 2008, 10:30:58 AM »

Sounds like you just want a Drag "copy". Otherwise, I can't see wht you just don't keep shooting the Finn. The only thing the Drag copy gets you is semi-auto.

Frankly, if you like the M38, my hat's off to you. That's a nasty little bugger w/ the 54R.

Quote from: Will52100 on July 05, 2008, 03:28:56 AM

Thanks. For the most part it would be a range gun, with hunting and varmit control(coyote and wild dog) the only real world use, with the posibility of home defense a low probability. When I say range gun, I don't mean preccison shooting, mainly hitting the steel targets or what not.

I've got a M38, and a Finnish M91, prefere the M38 due to size and handy ness, though from a rest my Finn will out shoot it with iron sights. I've got a scope and mount coming for the M38 to see what it's capable of.

One option I've though of is to convert an SKS to a pistol grip stock, maybe add a removable mag, probably not.

Interesting discussion and informative, Thanks guys.

Timmer · « **Reply #12 on:** July 07, 2008, 04:49:38 PM »

taking a different track for a responce. If you shoot left handed the 7.62x39mm round in a sks may be the better choice as the 7.62x54R Mosin Nagants are right handed bolt action rifles. I do not know about the draganat(sp). For me, my Yugo sks will stay inside of 2" at 100 yards from the bench for 10 rounds. The Nagant will stay inside of 1/2" for 3 rounds. Yes I shoot left handed due to having a stroke in my right optical nerve several years ago. If I were going hunting I'd take my Mosin Nagant as I tend to get as close as I can and then take my best shot. So far I haven't ever needed a second shot.

Will52100 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 07, 2008, 07:26:45 PM »

While I admit I'd love to have drag copy, something differant so to speak. I love the M38 nagant, it's light and shoulders easy, and with a couple layers of foam for a shoulder pad is the rite length for me and recoil isn't bad at all. It's load, but unless hunting I wear ear protection.

I guess I should say that I'm looking at getting a semi auto rifle, something I can hunt with or kill cans and steel targets. Primarily for hunting I will probably stick with the nagant. From military service to CAS though I can apreciate simplifing ammo stocks though. Though it realy isn't that hard to have two types on hand, I already compete with three cartrige sizes durning a normal CAS match. If I were rite handed I probably wouldnt even think of an auto, but being a lefty makes a quick follow up shot take a bit longer and makes me break my site lock. And lets face it, auto's are fun to walk into that pesky soup can.

Al said and done I'll probably get a Russian or Belgain AK variant, maybe a SKS if I can find one for the rite price.

Thanks for the info and opions guys, learned a lot.

MGMorden · « **Reply #14 on:** July 09, 2008, 08:44:51 AM »

Quote from: tn_junk on July 04, 2008, 04:32:02 PM

The 7.62x54 that I had kicked like a mad mule

I had the same experience in my Mosin Nangant M38. I'm guesing it's just that it's a light rifle with a steel buttplate, but man oh man that thing stings. I've got other equally powerful guns (several military 8mm Mausers, a sporterized 8mm Mauser, 2 .30-06's, etc) but none of them hurt like that little M38.

Will52100 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 09, 2008, 04:24:00 PM »

When I first got the M38 it didn't take long to figure I needed a recoil pad. The light weight and short stock and steel but plate realy hurt. To try something I took a couple layers of foam, some leftovers from several years back to line crapman tool boxes and cut out for tool placement, and using masking take to hold them on. It added about 1" to the stock length and made a big differance in recoil. Now it's a bit easier to suck it into my shoulder. I realy need to go ahead and get a decent recoil pad, a nice thick one to add length, but the masking tape and foam has been working well for a while. Even so I don't normaly put more than about 100 rounds through it an afternoon.

Mikey · « **Reply #16 on:** July 10, 2008, 12:36:11 AM »

I had a Mosin like that - can't recall if it was a M38 or M44 but it slapped the snot outta ya whenever you put heavy loads (200 gn ball) through it. Had the same sort of a problem with a VZ24 with a reworked stock - the stock was just cut way down. Anyhow, found out both needed to have the actions bedded and that seemed to make all the difference. Mikey.

1911crazy · « **Reply #17 on:** July 10, 2008, 04:32:36 PM »

Don't the dragg's have a first shot cold problem with accuracy on the cold barrel first shot? I think its due to the longer unsupported barrel(short forearm stock).

I found out the unissued/refurbed mosins need to be sighted in(benchrested when there shot for the very first time. My brand new russian m44 right out of the box was off at 100yds when i first shot it. But it did shoot a tight group.

All this talk about the 7,62x54r and the 7,62x39 makes me wonder why the 7,62x45 czech never caught on. Its kind of the middle ground for the 7,62 european calibers.

rays89 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 11, 2008, 08:42:59 AM »

I had a Dragonov Tiger about 10 years ago. It was the worst rifle I ever owned. It wasn't accurate, It kicked like a mule. I have possessed several rifles with scopes. And this was the only one that would pop me in the eye everytime I pulled the trigger. I guess a major reason for the inaccuraccy problem was the flinch of anticpating getting punched in the eye.
I have a few other 7.62 X 54 rifles Like the M44 and yes it does kick like a mule with 200 grain rounds with a pretty wild muzzle flash. So really if you are shooting just for giggles. 7.62 x39 is the best bet. You can shoot an SKS all day without getting a sore shoulder or a black eye.......

1911crazy · « **Reply #19 on:** July 11, 2008, 02:26:48 PM »

Quote from: rays89 on July 11, 2008, 08:42:59 AM

I had a Dragonov Tiger about 10 years ago. It was the worst rifle I ever owned. It wasn't accurate, It kicked like a mule. I have possessed several rifles with scopes. And this was the only one that would pop me in the eye everytime I pulled the trigger. I guess a major reason for the inaccuraccy problem was the flinch of anticpating getting punched in the eye.
I have a few other 7.62 X 54 rifles Like the M44 and yes it does kick like a mule with 200 grain rounds with a pretty wild muzzle flash. So really if you are shooting just for giggles. 7.62 x39 is the best bet. You can shoot an SKS all day without getting a sore shoulder or a black eye.......

As we get older the small bore mausers and the semi -auto's seem to get shot more often then the big bore shoulder smackers. After shooting my 338winmag i pick up my shoulder on the way home. Trust me i can shoot anything after shooting that one. After my first shot i wonder why i bought it. But its handy in bear country they hate it.

I can't picture myself going to war with an M44/M38/M91/59 they had to be killers in a war to shoot that often. At first i wondered why are all the military bolt guns so heavy? Even the swiss k31 is a beast too.

jcn59 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 11, 2008, 06:04:23 PM »

I've got one of those short barrel Mosins. I pull the 180 FMJs & replace with 165 PSP. That takes some of the snot out of it & makes it more pleasant to shoot, plus decent deer rifle.

Incidentally, I made a peep that rides on the bolt which works better than you would think. Strange looking, but not as strange as the regular rear sight looks like to my old eyes. Kind of like a muskrat with no tail.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #21 on:** July 11, 2008, 06:35:35 PM »

I have a chinees Varmint AK... Don't ask. The gun is an AK and the rounds shoot every time and they go down the barrel but not really tight. Exactly what an AK does. With the varmint after the name I thought they may have made it tighter. No, it just has a long barrel and a bipod. I thought that this would be a cheap answer for a high power shoot my club puts on each month. If you want a 7.62X39 they do make some good bolt action guns like the CZ 527 carbine that produce good results. The most efficient round the 22PPC is made fron the 7.62X39 round and is very accurate.
While the Droganov is basically an AK action it is made tight to get the most out of it as a target rifle. I have shot a couple Drogs and they are great. The Russian scopes are a little funky when your used to a Duplex.

GrassLakeRon · « **Reply #22 on:** July 12, 2008, 08:45:57 AM »

Love them both. I had a Mosin 91/30 hex cut down and it was a "blast" to shoot. 2" groups at 100 yards with surplus ammo. Sold it because it was my gun of the month. I have an NHM-91. Wow, what a fun gun. I have many other guns, when I shoot them (surplus wise) I do so to enjoy them. So enjoy them for what they are. Will I ever own another mosin, what month is it now

Ron

Mikey · « **Reply #23 on:** July 12, 2008, 11:49:53 AM »

Ron - do you still have the original wood on that NHM-91?

I removed mine and replaced it with standard AK furniture - handles soooo much better for me. I still find mine to be more accurate with open sights than scoped. Fun gun is right. Mikey.

GrassLakeRon · « **Reply #24 on:** July 15, 2008, 03:35:52 AM »

Mikey,

You can say I the only person who likes the thumbhole stock. I wish I could find a synthetic version of the same thing. I'm getting 2" groups with wolf 123gr fmj. I love it, it is a fun gun to shoot. I think I will do some stock work. I have some spare walnut around, I mite try to thin the stock down to get my small hands around it better. I have a 3x9 Leapers on it. It is maybe 13 pounds now. Ya, this alot, I know, but I like the look, just not the weight.

Ron