Author Topic: If they hadn't shot down the fourth plane it would've hit the dome"  (Read 2256 times)

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Offline DalesCarpentry

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Re: If they hadn't shot down the fourth plane it would've hit the dome"
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2008, 06:16:13 AM »
I'm with GrandpaMike.  It's hard to read some of this and not get mad.  So I'll just say this and then I have no more to say about this subject: If I thought I lived in a country with a government so bereft of honour, decency, and regard for it's citizens that it would create and orchestrate a scenario to kill over 3000 of it's people in order to distroy some "embarrassing papers", I wouldn't live here.  To even suggest that means that our government is no better than the despots in the middle east, Russia and Africa that would cold blooded kill thousands of their own to test a new nerve gas or over a tribal difference or on a whim. The very idea spits on the grave of every brave, young American that has died trying to help others enjoy what we enjoy here.  The sheer size of the cabal needed to enact such a deed staggers the imagination and the decay has to be so extensive that any salvage of America the Beautiful is beyond consideration. The very idea makes my heart hurt.
Well said. Dale
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Offline ms

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Re: If they hadn't shot down the fourth plane it would've hit the dome"
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2008, 06:21:51 AM »
at 09:59:16 AM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm with GrandpaMike.  It's hard to read some of this and not get mad.  So I'll just say this and then I have no more to say about this subject: If I thought I lived in a country with a government so bereft of honour, decency, and regard for it's citizens that it would create and orchestrate a scenario to kill over 3000 of it's people in order to distroy some "embarrassing papers", I wouldn't live here.  To even suggest that means that our government is no better than the despots in the middle east, Russia and Africa that would cold blooded kill thousands of their own to test a new nerve gas or over a tribal difference or on a whim. The very idea spits on the grave of every brave, young American that has died trying to help others enjoy what we enjoy here.  The sheer size of the cabal needed to enact such a deed staggers the imagination and the decay has to be so extensive that any salvage of America the Beautiful is beyond consideration. The very idea makes my heart hurt. Better start moving.

Offline wgr

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Re: If they hadn't shot down the fourth plane it would've hit the dome"
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2008, 07:31:30 AM »
to many things dint add up. it wouldn't be the first time the government used a cover up as a means to an end as they see it
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Online Graybeard

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Re: If they hadn't shot down the fourth plane it would've hit the dome"
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2008, 10:43:37 AM »
I'm with GrandpaMike.  It's hard to read some of this and not get mad.  So I'll just say this and then I have no more to say about this subject: If I thought I lived in a country with a government so bereft of honour, decency, and regard for it's citizens that it would create and orchestrate a scenario to kill over 3000 of it's people in order to distroy some "embarrassing papers", I wouldn't live here.  To even suggest that means that our government is no better than the despots in the middle east, Russia and Africa that would cold blooded kill thousands of their own to test a new nerve gas or over a tribal difference or on a whim. The very idea spits on the grave of every brave, young American that has died trying to help others enjoy what we enjoy here.  The sheer size of the cabal needed to enact such a deed staggers the imagination and the decay has to be so extensive that any salvage of America the Beautiful is beyond consideration. The very idea makes my heart hurt.

Well DUH they've already done it in the past and it's accepted proven fact.

Ya ever heard of the Tuskegee Airmen? Ya know those black guys who were infected with various veneral diseases WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE OR AGREEMENT just to see what the long term effects were?

Or the soldiers sent into the radiation after our early nuclear blasts just to determine how much it affected them and how long it would take them to die?

Or the experiments with various contagious diseases turned loose by the feds at airports and in large cities to study the dispersion rates of such?

All those have been proven beyond doubt as factual and there are lots more. If you think the folks who've been running this country the last 50 or so years have the best interest of the US Citizen foremost in mind then I've got some ocean front property down in Arizona I'd like to let you have cheap.

I find it amazing just how blindly trusting folks are when it should be obvious to all that the folks in all three branches of the federal government are working overtime to undo the US Constitution and remove all freedom and liberty in this country and replace it with something just as bad as it ever was in Russia or is no in China. Cover you eyes and bury your head in the sand if ya want but you will be alive to see it all come to fruition.


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Offline lrs

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Re: If they hadn't shot down the fourth plane it would've hit the dome"
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2008, 11:30:56 AM »
at 09:59:16 AM »  
""To even suggest that means that our government is no better than the despots in the middle east, Russia and Africa that would cold blooded kill thousands of their own to test a new nerve gas or over a tribal difference or on a whim. The very idea spits on the grave of every brave, young American that has died trying to help others enjoy what we enjoy here. 

I think the fact that it is reality, spits on the grave of every brave young American that has died trying to help others enjoy what we enjoy here.   
" we are screwed "

Offline ms

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Re: If they hadn't shot down the fourth plane it would've hit the dome"
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2008, 11:50:41 AM »
Quote
Well DUH they've already done it in the past and it's accepted proven fact.

Ya ever heard of the Tuskegee Airmen? Ya know those black guys who were infected with various veneral diseases WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE OR AGREEMENT just to see what the long term effects were?

Or the soldiers sent into the radiation after our early nuclear blasts just to determine how much it affected them and how long it would take them to die?

Or the experiments with various contagious diseases turned loose by the feds at airports and in large cities to study the dispersion rates of such?

All those have been proven beyond doubt as factual and there are lots more. If you think the folks who've been running this country the last 50 or so years have the best interest of the US Citizen foremost in mind then I've got some ocean front property down in Arizona I'd like to let you have cheap.

I find it amazing just how blindly trusting folks are when it should be obvious to all that the folks in all three branches of the federal government are working overtime to undo the US Constitution and remove all freedom and liberty in this country and replace it with something just as bad as it ever was in Russia or is no in China. Cover you eyes and bury your head in the sand if ya want but you will be alive to see it all come to fruition.
 
 
 
I agree with you gb.

Offline toysoldier

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Re: If they hadn't shot down the fourth plane it would've hit the dome"
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2008, 06:15:11 PM »
GB, I think you've got some things mixed up, especially the VD studies. They didn't involve Tuskeegee airmen, and no one was deliberately infected. The study took black men diagnosed with a venereal disease, randomly assigned them to either a treated or untreated group, and recorded the results. The airport studies were done with (supposedly) harmless microbes, to study dispersal patterns, etc. What was done to our soldiers and sailors involved in nuclear tests is inexcusable.

As for why the Pennsylvania plane did not come down intact, it was a fullly-loaded commercial jet, not an acrobatic biplane. When the struggle for control of the craft caused it to experience high G forces, it broke up. Simple as that. You can't jinx around a plane like that without pieces falling off. Duh!

Offline ms

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Re: If they hadn't shot down the fourth plane it would've hit the dome"
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2008, 01:12:40 AM »
Using Human Beings as Laboratory Animals


Taliaferro Clark, Head of the U.S. Public Health Service at the outset of the experiment.
The true nature of the experiment had to be kept from the subjects to ensure their cooperation. The sharecroppers' grossly disadvantaged lot in life made them easy to manipulate. Pleased at the prospect of free medical care—almost none of them had ever seen a doctor before—these unsophisticated and trusting men became the pawns in what James Jones, author of the excellent history on the subject, Bad Blood, identified as “the longest nontherapeutic experiment on human beings in medical history.”

The study was meant to discover how syphilis affected blacks as opposed to whites—the theory being that whites experienced more neurological complications from syphilis, whereas blacks were more susceptible to cardiovascular damage. How this knowledge would have changed clinical treatment of syphilis is uncertain.

Although the PHS touted the study as one of great scientific merit, from the outset its actual benefits were hazy. It took almost forty years before someone involved in the study took a hard and honest look at the end results, reporting that “nothing learned will prevent, find, or cure a single case of infectious syphilis or bring us closer to our basic mission of controlling venereal disease in the United States.”

When the experiment was brought to the attention of the media in 1972, news anchor Harry Reasoner described it as an experiment that “used human beings as laboratory animals in a long and inefficient study of how long it takes syphilis to kill someone.”


A Heavy Price in the Name of Bad Science

  To ensure that the men would show up for a painful and potentially dangerous spinal tap, the PHS doctors misled them with a letter full of promotional hype: “Last Chance for Special Free Treatment.”
The fact that autopsies would eventually be required was also concealed.
 
By the end of the experiment, 28 of the men had died directly of syphilis, 100 were dead of related complications, 40 of their wives had been infected, and 19 of their children had been born with congenital syphilis. How had these men been induced to endure a fatal disease in the name of science?

To persuade the community to support the experiment, one of the original doctors admitted it “was necessary to carry on this study under the guise of a demonstration and provide treatment.” At first, the men were prescribed the syphilis remedies of the day—bismuth, neoarsphenamine, and mercury— but in such small amounts that only 3 percent showed any improvement.

These token doses of medicine were good public relations and did not interfere with the true aims of the study. Eventually, all syphilis treatment was replaced with “pink medicine”—aspirin.

To ensure that the men would show up for a painful and potentially dangerous spinal tap, the PHS doctors misled them with a letter full of promotional hype: “Last Chance for Special Free Treatment.” The fact that autopsies would eventually be required was also concealed.

As a doctor explained, “If the colored population becomes aware that accepting free hospital care means a post-mortem, every darky will leave Macon County...” Even the Surgeon General of the United States participated in enticing the men to remain in the experiment, sending them certificates of appreciation after 25 years in the study.


Following Doctors' Orders


It takes little imagination to ascribe racist attitudes to the white government officials who ran the experiment, but what can one make of the numerous African Americans who collaborated with them? The experiment's name comes from the Tuskegee Institute, the black university founded by Booker T. Washington. Its affiliated hospital lent the PHS its medical facilities for the study, and other predominantly black institutions as well as local black doctors also participated. A black nurse, Eunice Rivers, was a central figure in the experiment for most of its forty years.


The Veterans' Administration Hospital in Tuskegee, Alabama. Some of the study's post-mortem exams were conducted here.
The promise of recognition by a prestigious government agency may have obscured the troubling aspects of the study for some. A Tuskegee doctor, for example, praised “the educational advantages offered our interns and nurses as well as the added standing it will give the hospital.” Nurse Rivers explained her role as one of passive obedience: “we were taught that we never diagnosed, we never prescribed; we followed the doctor's instructions!”

It is clear that the men in the experiment trusted her and that she sincerely cared about their well-being, but her unquestioning submission to authority eclipsed her moral judgment. Even after the experiment was exposed to public scrutiny, she genuinely felt nothing ethical had been amiss.

One of the most chilling aspects of the experiment was how zealously the PHS kept these men from receiving treatment. When several nationwide campaigns to eradicate venereal disease came to Macon County, the men were prevented from participating. Even when penicillin—the first real cure for syphilis—was discovered in the 1940s, the Tuskegee men were deliberately denied the medication.

During World War II, 250 of the men registered for the draft and were consequently ordered to get treatment for syphilis, only to have the PHS exempt them. Pleased at their success, the PHS representative announced: “So far, we are keeping the known positive patients from getting treatment.” The experiment continued in spite of the Henderson Act (1943), a public health law requiring testing and treatment for venereal disease, and in spite of the World Health Organization's Declaration of Helsinki (1964), which specified that “informed consent” was needed for experiments involving human beings.


Blowing the Whistle

  The PHS did not accept the media's comparison of Tuskegee with the experiments performed by Nazi doctors on Jewish victims during World War II. Yet the PHS offered the same defense offered at the Nuremberg trials — they were just carrying out orders.
The story finally broke in the Washington Star on July 25, 1972, in an article by Jean Heller of the Associated Press. Her source was Peter Buxtun, a former PHS venereal disease interviewer and one of the few whistle blowers over the years. The PHS, however, remained unrepentant, claiming the men had been “volunteers” and “were always happy to see the doctors,” and an Alabama state health officer who had been involved claimed “somebody is trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.”

Under the glare of publicity, the government ended their experiment, and for the first time provided the men with effective medical treatment for syphilis. Fred Gray, a lawyer who had previously defended Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King, filed a class action suit that provided a $10 million out-of-court settlement for the men and their families. Gray, however, named only whites and white organizations as defendants in the suit, portraying Tuskegee as a black and white case when it was in fact more complex than that—black doctors and institutions had been involved from beginning to end.

The PHS did not accept the media's comparison of Tuskegee with the appalling experiments performed by Nazi doctors on their Jewish victims during World War II. Yet in addition to the medical and racist parallels, the PHS offered the same morally bankrupt defense offered at the Nuremberg trials: they claimed they were just carrying out orders, mere cogs in the wheel of the PHS bureaucracy, exempt from personal responsibility.

The study's other justification—for the greater good of science—is equally spurious. Scientific protocol had been shoddy from the start. Since the men had in fact received some medication for syphilis in the beginning of the study, however inadequate, it thereby corrupted the outcome of a study of “untreated syphilis.”


The Legacy of Tuskegee

  Related Links:
Black History Month Features

U.S. Public Health Service

Tuskegee National Historic Site

Tuskegee University (formerly the Tuskegee Institute)

Internet Resources on the Tuskegee Study

Clinton's Apology for the Experiment
 
In 1990, a survey found that 10 percent of African Americans believed that the U.S. government created AIDS as a plot to exterminate blacks, and another 20 percent could not rule out the possibility that this might be true. As preposterous and paranoid as this may sound, at one time the Tuskegee experiment must have seemed equally farfetched.

Who could imagine the government, all the way up to the Surgeon General of the United States, deliberately allowing a group of its citizens to die from a terrible disease for the sake of an ill-conceived experiment? In light of this and many other shameful episodes in our history, African Americans' widespread mistrust of the government and white society in general should not be a surprise to anyone.

Offline NONYA

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Re: If they hadn't shot down the fourth plane it would've hit the dome"
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2008, 08:19:13 AM »
It was shot down and everyone knows it,if you cant believe it pull your head out of the sand.Those people were going to die no matter what,they did the right thing and saved the people at the target site.
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Offline toysoldier

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Re: If they hadn't shot down the fourth plane it would've hit the dome"
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2008, 12:16:54 PM »
   TM7, there is a big diffeerence between what commercial planes are stressed for and what they can be subjected to, especially in a sharp dive. It would be nice if we had a pilot on the forum who could discuss this. We just didn't have the "assets" to intercept these planes, or the political will to order a shoot-down.
   As for the towers coming down, the deficiencies in fireproofing and structural redundancy have been well covered in various special reports. The difference between the Empire State Building surviving the impact of a B-25 and the Twin Towers collapsing from a jetliner hit is that the older building was built stronger than it had to be. They didn't have sophisticated computer modeling, so they erred on the side of caution. The Towers were a product of more precise engineering studies, and were only engineered to be as strong as they had to be. In particular, fireproofing was not nearly as good, allowing the steel beams to quickly soften in the post-crash inferno.
   A good parallel is the differences between the B-17 and the B-24. Earlier airplane design involved a lot of "this looks right" engineering, and the B-17 was what we would now call "overbuilt". That's why it was able to survive a lot of punishment and still come home. The later B-24 was a more sophisticated design, able to carry larger loads over a greater distance. But the economies in weight that made improved performance possible left the B-24 more vulnerable to combat damage.
   The towers dropped when the fire had softened the steel support beams enough that the upper floors dropped onto the lower ones. This impact shattered the nex floor down, which added its weight to the falling mass, and so on. This compares to a martial arts demonstration where a stack of concrete slabs is broken. It is the impact of the first broken slab that breaks the slab below it, and so on.
   The thought that a few simple acts can bring down huge buildings is unsettling, and makes it easier to believe in vast, complex conspiricies. The internet has made it possible for these conspiricy stories to spread, and for all sorts of people to add embellishments. However, Occam's Razor tells us that the simplest explanation is probably the correct one. The more complex the scenario, the less likely it is to be true.

   A band of fanatics got some basic training in flying airplanes, got past our pathetic PC security, took over 4 planes, and smashed 3 of them into specific targets. The fires caused by the impact were sufficient to initiate the collapse of the Twin Towers. The 4th plane most likely broke up as passengers and hijackers fought for control of the aircraft. It's that simple and that tragic.

Offline powderman

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Re: If they hadn't shot down the fourth plane it would've hit the dome"
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2008, 12:40:42 PM »
TOYSOLDIER. Well said Sir and I believe true. Common  sense would see that the collapse was just as you said, just as I've said for years. POWDERMAN.  :) :)
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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Offline DalesCarpentry

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Re: If they hadn't shot down the fourth plane it would've hit the dome"
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2008, 12:48:20 PM »
That is just the way I see it also. Dale
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Offline 30-06man

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Re: If they hadn't shot down the fourth plane it would've hit the dome"
« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2008, 05:33:03 PM »
Same way I see it. Jet fuel also burns very hot and a fraction of a inch is quite a bit. I know what a fraction of a inch of racing fuel will do and I wouldn't want to know what jet fuel would do. I do not know what to think about the PA plane wreck. I do believe a plane hit the pentagon and I am not sure if it was shot down or not.
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Offline zombiewolf

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Re: If they hadn't shot down the fourth plane it would've hit the dome"
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2008, 05:54:32 PM »
Same way I see it. Jet fuel also burns very hot and a fraction of a inch is quite a bit. I know what a fraction of a inch of racing fuel will do and I wouldn't want to know what jet fuel would do.

Regular jet fuel is no.1 kerosene and JP5. Enhanced cold weather performance jet fuel is called "Jet-B"( kerosene-naptha)

JET A-1
Flash point:    38 °C (100.4 °F)
Autoignition temperature:    210 °C (410 °F)
Freezing point:    −47 °C (-52.6 °F). (−40 °C (-40°F) for JET A)
Open air burning temperatures:    287.5 °C (549.5 °F)
Maximum burning temperature:    980 °C (1796 °F)
Density at 15 °C (59 °F):    0.8075 kg/L





Minimum melting temp for steel
2500 F



Get it?


Offline 30-06man

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Re: If they hadn't shot down the fourth plane it would've hit the dome"
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2008, 06:14:27 PM »
Same way I see it. Jet fuel also burns very hot and a fraction of a inch is quite a bit. I know what a fraction of a inch of racing fuel will do and I wouldn't want to know what jet fuel would do.

Regular jet fuel is no.1 kerosene and JP5. Enhanced cold weather performance jet fuel is called "Jet-B"( kerosene-naptha)

JET A-1
Flash point:    38 °C (100.4 °F)
Autoignition temperature:    210 °C (410 °F)
Freezing point:    −47 °C (-52.6 °F). (−40 °C (-40°F) for JET A)
Open air burning temperatures:    287.5 °C (549.5 °F)
Maximum burning temperature:    980 °C (1796 °F)
Density at 15 °C (59 °F):    0.8075 kg/L





Minimum melting temp for steel
2500 F



Get it?


That's a melting point. Don't tell me that 900 F won't make it softer or make it weaker. Its not only the fuel buring either every thing that came in contact with it burned and all of the plastics, papers, carpit and items added up into
making the steel softer and possibly melting it.

The sportsman lives his life vicariously. For he secretly yearns to have lived before, in a simpler time. A time when his love for the land, water, fish and wildlife would be more than just part of his life. It would be his state of mind

Rick

Offline 30-06man

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Re: If they hadn't shot down the fourth plane it would've hit the dome"
« Reply #45 on: July 28, 2008, 06:20:44 PM »
RED HEAT TEMPERATURES

Faintest dull red 900F

Dull red 1200F

Cherry red 1400F

Orange red 1500F

Bright salmon orange 1600F

Brilliant orange 1640F
The sportsman lives his life vicariously. For he secretly yearns to have lived before, in a simpler time. A time when his love for the land, water, fish and wildlife would be more than just part of his life. It would be his state of mind

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Offline DakotaElkSlayer

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Re: If they hadn't shot down the fourth plane it would've hit the dome"
« Reply #46 on: July 28, 2008, 06:40:16 PM »
Interesting points of view...  How can a few crazies with box cutters destroy so much and take so many innocent lives?  It is something that many people have a hard time believing.  Somehow, the cause of such tragedy must be much more grand.  Think back to JFK...  Many found him to be a beacon of hope, someone to bring this country to the greatness it deserves.  How can a "loser," by himself, take out such a great man?  So, many conspiracies have been dreamed up to make the assassination be as great as the man it took.  Same thing is happening here...  Same thing with the death of Princess Di...

Jim
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Offline myronman3

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Re: If they hadn't shot down the fourth plane it would've hit the dome"
« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2008, 03:32:44 AM »
it is too bad that if it had to happen, that the towers were left alone and the "dome" would have been taken out, along with all the criminals in it.  this country might have stood a chance of actually resolving some of it's issues. 
   i remember watching them run out of that 'dome' like rats.   while the day was a shock, that showed me how brave our politicians are.   i will never forget that.

Offline Beers

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Re: If they hadn't shot down the fourth plane it would've hit the dome"
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2008, 04:45:53 AM »
Oh please... I'm no fan of those folks either but really.... I suppose you'd have stood there waiting for the plane to hit you?

Offline myronman3

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Re: If they hadn't shot down the fourth plane it would've hit the dome"
« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2008, 09:46:21 AM »
they looked like rats running from a fire.   lol.  a brave lot they are.   

   and, i never abandoned my post.