Author Topic: "Best" Contender Whitetail/Antelope round? (Read 3735 times)

Rog · « **on:** July 31, 2008, 04:36:29 AM »

I know there have been a lot of discussions regarding this topic, but I have been thinking of this for a couple of days now.

I mentioned "best" in my subject line and that is a somewhat subjective word, but for the purposes of this discussion here, I will define "best" here as meaning having the "best" down range terminal ballistics as it applies to trajectory, energy and accuracy potential.

In a nutshell, what caliber in the Contender is the flattest shooting, hardest hitting cartridge available, that exhibits good accuracy, and good terminal performance, and gives maximum range capability, on deer size game?

It doesn't matter if it's a wildcat or standard round.

In my mind, the first round that comes to mind is the 309 JDJ. Is there anyother round that might be "better" in terms of down range energy, trajectory, etc.? The 30-30 AI may be the "equal" of the 309 JDJ, at least with 150 grain bullets, but I would expect the case capacity of the 309 JDJ to give it an edge with 165 grain bullets. (Hornady's 7th edition manual has some good data on the 309 JDJ - that data is ballistically better than what I use to get out of my old 30-30 AI Contender bbl.... best I could do was 2385 fps with 150 BT's.... the 309 JDJ is getting 2500 fps with 150's in the Hornady manual....).

I know some of you are probably gonna mention the 6.5 JDJ, the 7-30 Waters, and similar cartridges, but, seriously, these aren't really "better", just "similar" and maybe even slightly inferior as I defined "best" above.

I have heard of a 7mm-444 round, but I never see/read/hear anything regarding it's ballistic capabilities. And what about rounds like the 7mm JDJ #2, the 6.5-30 JDJ and the 7-30 JDJ, and other 6.5, 7mm, 30 cal. rounds based on the 307 case? Where do these rounds fall into the spectrum of things?

Just been thinking of getting another Contender barrel and considering all the options. Barrel will most likely be a 14" or 15" bbl.

Thanks.

Rog

Hopalong7 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 31, 2008, 08:03:03 AM »

I have a 6.5JDJ, .309JDJ, and 30-30AI and my son is a long time 7-30Waters shooter and the difference between all of them wouldn't buy either of us lunch. By your definition of "best" I think the 309 would have to be the winner. As you said at 150gr the 309 and 30-30AI are almost equal, with the 309 really pulling away at 165gr and definately at 180gr. I like them all, but I'll quickly say that my favorite is the 6.5. Of course with a 120gr bullet the down range numbers can't compare with the 309 shooting a 165gr. Living in the East, I don't do a lot of long distance shootin'(at big game anyway). From a recoil standpoint the 6.5 is an absolute sweetheart to shoot and it's "killing power" seems to be way above it's numbers. My son says the same about his 7-30. I guess if I lived in Wyoming, I'd pick the 309 as my favorite, but I really don't want to part with any of them. I'll even muddy up the water a little more and say that for my "walking around" gun I'd probably still pick my ol' tried and true 10" .30 Herret. Now that I've got you as confused as I am, I'll shut up. GOOD SHOOTIN', Walt

Ken ONeill · « **Reply #2 on:** July 31, 2008, 10:34:59 AM »

My favorite for whitetails & pronghorn is the 257 JDJ. Runs a 100 gr BT @ 2620 fps: 85 gr @ 2800 fps. Tiny groups. Dead animals.
Nothing wrong with the .309, 6.5, .338 No.2 etc. in a Contender & the 7mm/08, .250 Savage,.308 etc in XP's and such. I own and use them all. Still prefer the .257 JDJ on game the size you describe.

Ladobe · « **Reply #3 on:** July 31, 2008, 07:12:17 PM »

No question I like the wildcats best and have used them for many years.

Easiest to acquire barrels: For medium range - 309JDJ... for longer range - 375JDJ. And for those deer/pronhorns that are in the next county - the 6.5 Super Bower.

I've owned a bunch of the JDJ's, and a bunch of the Bower wildcats too. While I really like the 225 Win based JDJ's, and the 375JDJ's were some of my all time favorite barrels (had 4 of them), when the ranges get extra long I prefer the Bower mid calibers over the JDJ's.

Quote

In a nutshell, what caliber in the Contender is the flattest shooting, hardest hitting cartridge available, that exhibits good accuracy, and good terminal performance, and gives maximum range capability, on deer size game?

Can't get the "best" of all of your wants in one barrel IMO. But you can get real close...

The 6.5 Super Bower (based on the 307/356 Win or 444 Marlin case) is my first pick as the flatest, most precise shooting at maximum range of all of them while retaining excellent down range energy. It would be my pick for deer/antelope at any range.

Second choice would be a Bower 30 Alaskan. Third the 7 Super Bower.

L.

Lone Star · « **Reply #4 on:** August 01, 2008, 01:29:16 AM »

The cartridge has almost nothing to do with accuracy, that is from the barrel/chambering qualty. My own favorite in this class is the .300 Savage. It gives near-.309JDJ ballistics but doesn't require you to buy from SSK - not that there is anythingwrong with SSK and I have their barrels, just more choices in makers. A 150 BTip at 2375 fps is a proven killer past 250 yards. My BB barrel has taken several dozen Kodiak blacktails without a loss, and groups 168 MKs into 0.6 moa aggregates. And I can fire factory loads if I ever need to.

.

WayneS · « **Reply #5 on:** August 01, 2008, 07:58:22 AM »

Been following this as I have a 30-30 with a JP break that begs for more powder, the 300 Savage would be my choice, for the following reasons;
1. Factory ammo is available
2. No high dollar dies
4. No brass forming
5. slightly smaller case head
Now to find someone that likes the savage to re chamber my bbl.

Ladobe · « **Reply #6 on:** August 01, 2008, 09:08:40 AM »

"The cartridge has almost nothing to do with accuracy, that is from the barrel/chambering qualty."

Caterstench!

300 Savage on the Contender frame huh? No thanks, I'll stick to the safe choices with some room for error. Prudent barrel makers won't chamber it in a Contender barrel.

Lone Star · « **Reply #7 on:** August 01, 2008, 11:43:50 AM »

SSK and Bullberry both have chambered for the .300 Savage, and JD even recommended the .300 to me personally about 15 years ago. I guess they aren't prudent barrel makers.

The SAAMI pressures for the .300 Savage are well under those of similar-cased cartridges like the .308, .30-06, etc. so the use of factory ammo is plenty safe. Please note that the .45 WinMag (with the same head size as the .300 Savage) was chambered by T/C in factory barrels for years, and the SAAMI pressure limit for that cartridge is higher than that for the Savage cartridge. I am sorry you were offended by my suggestion of a proven safe and effective cartridge.

Experienced shooters know that almost any cartridge can give sub-moa accuracy if loaded properly in an accurately-built firearm. If we get into high-accuracy competition like BR or 1000 yard shoots that is another story - but somehow I just don't think this thread deals with that facet of the shooting sports.

.

Keith L · « **Reply #8 on:** August 01, 2008, 12:05:47 PM »

308 and 30-06 are not safe in a Contender either. Are you talking about an Encore? Then it would make sense.

Ladobe · « **Reply #9 on:** August 01, 2008, 04:36:26 PM »

I've known Fred for well over 20 years, lived near him for years, ran around with him and spent a lot of time in his shop discussing just such matters. I can assure you Fred does NOT chamber Contender barrels for the 300 Savage now, and hasn't for a very long time. I'll bet he would even like to buy back the few he did just to get them out of circulation because he does not consider them safe on that frame. I've known JD much longer than Fred (although as a customer instead of personal friend), and he has always built his business around pushing the envelope HIS way. While I am a big fan of some of his proprietary cartridge developments for the Contender AND some of those for Encore frames, I do not agree that everything he has done for the Contender frame is prudent.

Thompson Center themselves won't chamber a Contender barrel for the 300 Savage. So even without the other aftermarket barrel makers who also will NOT do it, that should be a more than enough "experienced" source to suggest that doing so is not prudent.

Comparing to cartridges that are only safe on the Encore frame doesn't answer the mans question who wants to do this on a Contender frame safely. Why pick a cartridge that is known to be borderline safe on the Contender frame when there are so many other possibilities that are proven safe on this frame, have margin for error AND will equal or exceed the 300 Savage ballistically?

Per the thread author: "In a nutshell, what caliber in the Contender is the flattest shooting, hardest hitting cartridge available, that exhibits good accuracy, and good terminal performance, and gives maximum range capability, on deer size game?"

The man asked for a choice that on deer sized game will achieve the ballistic extremes safely on a Contender, including maximum range capability. That sir is dependant on the cartridge and components chosen for it and not just on the quality of the barrel. Many cartridges are more inherently precise (accurate) than others. I'm not saying you need BR or 1000 yard specs for deer hunting (although the 6.5 SB is inherently capable of doing both in spades), but it sure comes in handy on little pronghorns at very long ranges.

I've got better things to do than split hairs, so good luck with whatever you chose to get and have fun with it.

Rog · « **Reply #10 on:** August 02, 2008, 08:07:48 AM »

Thanks for all the responses. Much appreciated.

I am not trying to start any wars over everyones preferred cartridge. I am just trying to make sure I am not overlooking any options that I might not be too familar with.

I have my preferences, as does everyone else. Sometimes, though, it pays to see what others opinions and experiences are, and do so with an open mind. I particularly like to pay attention to the "reasoning" behind other peoples choices.

However, I think I am really trying to stretch the limits of the Conender platform, and perhaps, maybe too much. After all, I do have an Encore....

But, I just simply want to get a round that, In my opinion, would "optimize" the Contender platform.

Best regards,

Rog

xphunter · « **Reply #11 on:** August 02, 2008, 09:19:17 PM »

With your parameters I would go either with the 5.6x50R (RWS brass) Improved and necked up to either the 6mm or 6.5 caliber.
No fear of frame stretching and should equal or outrun the 6.5 Super Bower (Sorry Don!).

BobT · « **Reply #12 on:** August 03, 2008, 08:21:07 AM »

Rog,

Fitting your parameters I would say the .308 Predator is what you are looking for, It is basically a stretched version of the .309 JDJ that uses JDJ data at lower pressures.

Bob

Rog · « **Reply #13 on:** August 04, 2008, 03:23:44 AM »

That 5.6X50R case necked up is starting to really interest me. Thanks, xphunter, for the info. Gotta see how hard cases would be to come by now....

BobT, I've never heard of the 308 Predator. Does it use the 444 Marlin case?

I think that for really long range in a Contender, I might be better off staying with a 6.5 (or perhaps smaller...) bullet size simply because of the long skinny bullets available in the caliber and still maintain bullet weight that is low enough to drive them fast enough for extended ranges.

Regards,

Rog

WayneS · « **Reply #14 on:** August 04, 2008, 04:17:55 AM »

Quote from: Rog on August 04, 2008, 03:23:44 AM

That 5.6X50R case necked up is starting to really interest me. Thanks, xphunter, for the info. Gotta see how hard cases would be to come by now....

here is a little info on the 6.5 x 50 R http://www.bellmtcs.com/BellmChambers/6%205%20x%2050%20R%20Bellm%20data.htm
It might be better that the 6.5 JDJ [6.5 x 225W} with bullets up to 120 but with 140's ?
Since you will need a custom made bbl with a fast twist, I suggest you contact a few custom bbl. makers and see what 6 MM or 6.5 MM chamberings they offer and the availability of NOT so standard brass

Happy hunting in deciding on what you want

wayne

BobT · « **Reply #15 on:** August 04, 2008, 05:53:38 AM »

Quote from: Rog on August 04, 2008, 03:23:44 AM

BobT, I've never heard of the 308 Predator. Does it use the 444 Marlin case?

Yes it's a .444 based case. It uses a cut down .30/06 AI size die. You can also use a .309 JDJ if you are careful not to set the shoulder back. It's a very good cartridge IMHO same or slightly better ballistics than the .309 JDJ and lower pressures.

Bob

xphunter · « **Reply #16 on:** August 04, 2008, 05:57:57 AM »

If you go that route, use RWS brass.-Expensive but the best.
if you can't make sense of the link that wayne posted shoot me an email ernieemily@yahoo.com

SD Handgunner · « **Reply #17 on:** August 06, 2008, 06:38:21 PM »

To muddy up the water a little I e-mailed SSK to obtain their Load Data for the 7X30 JDJ. From the data JD sent me it looks like a 120gr. in the 7X30 JDJ will achieve 84 FPS more than I am getting out of a 120gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip in my SST Super 14 7-30 Waters.

The real surprise came with SSK's data for the 139gr. Hornady out of the 7X30 JDJ, which they are showing velocities for this bullet at the same velocity as my SST Super 14 7-30 Waters is pushing the 120gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip.

Larry

Rog · « **Reply #18 on:** August 07, 2008, 04:03:14 AM »

Larry, I sent you a PM on another site....

If you want to learn a bit more about the 7-30 JDJ, you can read about it in the latest Cartridges of the World book (I found a copy at Academy...). However, there isn't much detail about the case dimensions, but there is some load data.

I do know that JD has claimed that the 7-30 Waters will do 2400fps with 140's, from phone conversations in the past with him.

He also told me that the 120's don't gain as much velocity over the std 7-30 Waters.

Rog · « **Reply #19 on:** August 07, 2008, 04:05:05 AM »

SSK / JDJ also has a 6.5-30 JDJ (based on a necked down 7-30 Waters, and improved case design) that has some quite impressive velocities with various bullets.

SD Handgunner · « **Reply #20 on:** August 07, 2008, 04:18:50 AM »

That is what JD told me on Monday also. Since I have a 7-30 Waters Barrel that shoot pretty good as is, I may just have this one rechambered next winter. Lots of time to ponder over what I am going to do yet. I am entering into my bussiest time of the year at work so am quite sure I am not going to do anything until next winter.

Larry