We've all heard that "changing her mind is a woman's privilege", but..

[ironglow]

 For months now, all we have been hearing from Democrats is, " we can't drill our way out of the OPEC oil shortage !"...

  Now suddenly, B. Hussein Obama says, " I think we can !"  

[williamlayton]

It seems that politicians are exempt from truth and only held to a standard of convenience in time.
Blessings

[beemanbeme]

Geez, haven't you people ever heard of the word "expedient".  Kinda like Hillary trying to reinvent herself into a gun-toting, shot-swilling, nuke-em-til-they-glow hawk. 

I had heard that Obama was trying to pass a bill in the Senate to have Germany declared as one of the 57 States so those cabbageheads could vote in the coming election but it was just another expedient attempt to manipulate the election since the Dade County ploy didn't work.

[billy_56081]

What the heck does G.W's recinding an executive order his dad put in place have to do with flip flopping?

OH yes I forgot we are dealing with a True Muslim, kinda like when Iraq and Iran fought a war over some goats that were stolen centuries ago.

[GRIMJIM]

OH yes I forgot we are dealing with a True Muslim, kinda like when Iraq and Iran fought a war over some goats that were stolen centuries ago.

Hey that's not fair. You'd be mad too if someone stole your girlfriend.

[TribReady]

I totally decided NOT TO read this thread....until I decided TO read it

[no guns here]

You know... sometimes you can encounter a situation in which you are forced to change your mind.  I'm not defending the "blowing in the political wind flip-flopping" that goes on to fit whatever situation you are in at the moment at all.  Sometimes you can say  something for years, you can state your position over and over and THEN you can find out that you NEED to change your position.  Maybe science proves your position wrong... maybe you encounter someone or something that proves your preconceived notions incorrect.
I fully believe that we should stay out of ANWAR, that's my position.  I don't think the benefits outweigh the gain.  But you know, I could say the same thing for years... and then maybe someone would find a source of energy up there to power us for another millenium... then I'd have to change my mind and my position.  Would that be flip-flopping?
Personally, instead of drilling for oil in ANWAR, if I were President Bush, I'd go out on top by proclaiming "a la Kennedy" that we will devote our national energy to becoming energy independent.  I'd push for a combination of wind, solar, hydro, tidal, and thermo and nuclear power to start getting us weaned off of oil.  I'd challlenge our Congress, EPA and auto industry to get off their butts and produce world class auto's that get 100mpg, and world class electric vehicles.  I'd push an initiative to subsidize residential solar and wind power.  I'd push for more railway usage and get more semi's off the highway.
Bush has the power to completely change his legacy by becoming the first world leader to dedicate his nation to a cleaner power and transportation system.

But he won't...

ngh

[thxmrgarand]

Drilling in ANWR would significantly contribute to US energy independence.  The TransAlaska Pipeline produced 2 million barrels per day in 1989.  Today the production has dropped to 700,000 BBL/DA.  Feeder lines end within sight of ANWR.  For those who worry about the 2,000 acres that would be impacted by ANWR drilling, there was a Wall St Journal article over the weekend that showed drilling in Texas suburban neighborhoods; the article pointed out that if there are no negative impacts in suburbia then there would be none in ANWR.  It's a travesty and a tragedy that we prefer giving Middle Eastern potentates so much wealth that they are stealing our hegemony over drilling for oil in the United States!

I was a teenager when publications like Newsweek began reporting that solar, wind, geothermal, hydrogen, etc. would replace oil within just a few years.  Now I am nearing retirement age.  Also, I can remember when publications like Newsweek said that if and when oil reached $25 per barrel all the alternatives would be economic.  Now oil is at $125 and I don't know where to fill my truck with hydrogen.  Yes, I know that I am citing nominal dollars but does anyone believe it really matters?

The environmental movement is class struggle in the United States.  Environmentalists want socialism.  They want some sort of revolution to bring socialism (equal economic results regardless of effort or initiative).  They believe the rebellion will come if we all suffer greatly from economic dislocation, and they therefore justify any coercive means to bring out economic dislocation.  The environmentalists I know all grew up in families headed by urban professionals.  I have yet to meet an environmentalist who grew up logging and farming.  I have yet to meet an environmentalist who was the first in his/her family to go to high school.  The children of the upper class know what's best for us; just ask Obama and Nancy Pelosi.  Thanks for your time.

[no guns here]

Yeah, I know it would help, but it would help by furthering our dependence on a resource that will be increasingly in short supply.  We would be able to support our current lifestyle with no incentive to change.  I would prefer that we begin changing our national outlook on resource management sooner than later.  Don't get me wrong, I love my Suburban, I love to hear those dual Flowmasters ring!!!  Nothing like waking up a whole German town just driving through...  My lifted '89 Suburban in the US ain't going anywhere either.  I can't go muddin' in an hybrid...  But, on the other hand, I don't need to drive either of them every day.  I ride the bus if at all possible.  I'd love to have an electric car that would get me about 50 miles on a charge.  I could do 90% of my daily driving in one.  If I could then come home and plug it in to my inverter that is supplied by a hybrid solar/wind system then my transportation would be almost free on a daily basis.  I'm not an environmentalist by any means... I just think that there MIGHT be a smarter, cheaper, more ecologically sound way to do things.  I'd rather the air that my grandkids breathe not look like that in Beijing...  The current economic woes might excite some who believe it will lead to social and governmental changes.  I'm sort of excited by the possibilities of FORCING through economics, a change in the mindset of the American people.  I don't believe in socialism.  Free capitalism is the only way to go... how else can I get rich?  It's just that anymore, I don't see why I need a truck that gets the EXACT same gas mileage as my 1974 Chevy (350) for a daily driver.  Sure it has more power and rides better and is safer... but shouldn't there have been some other improvements... like in economy?  The big three advertise (proudly might I add) cars that get the same mileage as my 1987 Buick LeSabre.  The Honda Civic gets less mileage than my 1994 Civic did.  Come on, it's obvious that the only way this will change is through consumers forcing the change through buying habits.  Why can't we have +45 mpg turbo diesel cars like Europe does?  We will if consumers force it...  Why can't we have mini-vans that get 30mpg?  We will if consumers force it...  Change that will benefit us all by providing better fuel efficiency will not happen on a large scale in the US if we just continue on the current path.

Of course there are no bad effects in suburban texas... everything has already been dug up, paved over and electrified.  Who wants to have every possible square mile of earth with roads, paving, derricks, pumps, pipelines, trash, used cars, buildings, construction equipment etc...  I think that instead of continueing with more of the same... we should concentrate on developing new technologies and expanding the availability of existing viable technologies to provide power for our lifestyle.  It doesn't matter whether electricity comes from oil fired generators, natural gas generators or a wind generator.  It does matter how much it costs... demand will only grow.  It will outpace our ability to produce it through fossil fuel burning generators.  We can decrease that cost by generating household and municipal power through renewable sources.

Guess I'll get down off of my soapbox now... hope I made sense...

ngh

[deltecs]

Yeah, I know it would help, but it would help by furthering our dependence on a resource that will be increasingly in short supply.  We would be able to support our current lifestyle with no incentive to change.  I would prefer that we begin changing our national outlook on resource management sooner than later.  Don't get me wrong, I love my Suburban, I love to hear those dual Flowmasters ring!!!  Nothing like waking up a whole German town just driving through...  My lifted '89 Suburban in the US ain't going anywhere either.  I can't go muddin' in an hybrid...  But, on the other hand, I don't need to drive either of them every day.  I ride the bus if at all possible.  I'd love to have an electric car that would get me about 50 miles on a charge.  I could do 90% of my daily driving in one.  If I could then come home and plug it in to my inverter that is supplied by a hybrid solar/wind system then my transportation would be almost free on a daily basis.  I'm not an environmentalist by any means... I just think that there MIGHT be a smarter, cheaper, more ecologically sound way to do things.  I'd rather the air that my grandkids breathe not look like that in Beijing...  The current economic woes might excite some who believe it will lead to social and governmental changes.  I'm sort of excited by the possibilities of FORCING through economics, a change in the mindset of the American people.  I don't believe in socialism.  Free capitalism is the only way to go... how else can I get rich?  It's just that anymore, I don't see why I need a truck that gets the EXACT same gas mileage as my 1974 Chevy (350) for a daily driver.  Sure it has more power and rides better and is safer... but shouldn't there have been some other improvements... like in economy?  The big three advertise (proudly might I add) cars that get the same mileage as my 1987 Buick LeSabre.  The Honda Civic gets less mileage than my 1994 Civic did.  Come on, it's obvious that the only way this will change is through consumers forcing the change through buying habits.  Why can't we have +45 mpg turbo diesel cars like Europe does?  We will if consumers force it...  Why can't we have mini-vans that get 30mpg?  We will if consumers force it...  Change that will benefit us all by providing better fuel efficiency will not happen on a large scale in the US if we just continue on the current path.

Of course there are no bad effects in suburban texas... everything has already been dug up, paved over and electrified.  Who wants to have every possible square mile of earth with roads, paving, derricks, pumps, pipelines, trash, used cars, buildings, construction equipment etc...  I think that instead of continueing with more of the same... we should concentrate on developing new technologies and expanding the availability of existing viable technologies to provide power for our lifestyle.  It doesn't matter whether electricity comes from oil fired generators, natural gas generators or a wind generator.  It does matter how much it costs... demand will only grow.  It will outpace our ability to produce it through fossil fuel burning generators.  We can decrease that cost by generating household and municipal power through renewable sources.

Guess I'll get down off of my soapbox now... hope I made sense...

ngh

The mere fact of opening ANWR and offshore drilling would push capitalistic speculation on oil futures back down to realistic values.  This is the whole concept of capitalism.  Supply and demand.  The worlds demand it up, the world's largest oil user consumption is down, so the total oveall consumption of oil is nearly stationary, yet market spot market prices have skyrocketed.  This is strictly due to speculation.  By authorizing the opening of ANWR and offshore drilling in the US, the capitalistic market would stabilize due speculation, reduced cost at the pump, reduced cost of economic goods and services, alleviate the gross transfer of wealth from the US to the middle East back to the US, and give us time to transition into renewable energy sources, which would further reduce oil costs due less demand.  We cannot wean ourselves from oil until we have sound alternative renewable energy in competition with oil.  There is absolutely no reason, except for environmentalists groundless objections, in developement of alternative energy sources.  I do not discount nuclear, solar, thermal, tidal, hydro, and fuel cells.  Each can be used in their respective locations dependent on climate, on site conditions and needs of the service area.  A great portion of the fuel used in the US is for electrical generation and not vehicle use.  Any major reduction in electrical supply would decrease the demand so costs would fall.  Along with increased fuel economy and hybrid vehicles, this reduction could be accomplished in relatively short order without major environmental concerns over long lasting effects.

[beemanbeme]

I still kinda like the idea of saving ours whilst using up the other fellow's.  And, other than being a PIA to the image canscious folks that just must have their F150's and monster SUV's to drive the kids to school, gas hasn't been a problem to Americans.

[crustaceous]

I still kinda like the idea of saving ours whilst using up the other fellow's.- AMEN!
America has had a hundred year love affair with cheap gas and the excesses it has allowed us to indulge in.  Those days are over and it's time suck it up and move forward.  The sooner the better.
Drilling in ANWR or offshore won't do anything to lower gas prices. We'll just have a little more $4.00/gal gas.
I'm willing to walk, ride a bike, park the F250, use public transportation, move into town etc if it means leaving a better world for my kids.

[billy_56081]

  And sadly to say this recent drop in oil prices had absolutly nothing to do with the threat of opening up offshore drilling. It has ALL to do with China throttling back on fuel usage to clean up its filthy air for the olympics. Scrap metal prices have dropped considerably also, just mark my word and watch the oil and scrap prices scream up after the Olympics are over.

[deltecs]

  And sadly to say this recent drop in oil prices had absolutly nothing to do with the threat of opening up offshore drilling. It has ALL to do with China throttling back on fuel usage to clean up its filthy air for the olympics. Scrap metal prices have dropped considerably also, just mark my word and watch the oil and scrap prices scream up after the Olympics are over.

I realize this post was in response to China's emerging industrial power as a world consumer, but isn't this also a type of speculation.  This speculation and prediction is just what is causing the market to sky rocket.  With offshore drilling permitted, this opens up supply to the American market in light of any further expansion from China and thus competes for foreign oil with subsequent price reductions.  This is plain simple economics in capitistism.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

  Everyone is clammoring for more drilling, why isn't anyone saying we should lower the national speed limit?  That would conserve oil immediately and drive prices down.  To the free market, saving 10 barrels of oil is the same as producing an extra 10 barrels.  Why not increase the gas mileage requirements AT LEAST up to China's standards?  This would also have a quicker effect than opening up ANWR.
  Lets say we open ANWR since it is so far away and none of us will ever see it...  What will stop them from drilling in our other wildlife refuges once we open this Pandora's Box?  Sorry, but I like my ducks...

Jim

[magooch]

Let's just have those who don't favor drilling, stop driving, or use alternative fuels.  Put your actions where your mouth is.  That should take care of the demand problem.

[no guns here]

trying to... takes a bit to put it into practice... have to have the money to do it... of course if there were more choices available, it would be easier and cheaper...

ngh

[MGMorden]

I still kinda like the idea of saving ours whilst using up the other fellow's.  And, other than being a PIA to the image canscious folks that just must have their F150's and monster SUV's to drive the kids to school, gas hasn't been a problem to Americans.

I dunno.  I drive a little 4 cylinder car to work everyday that gets over 30mpg highway, and gas still hurts a bit.  I live way out in the woods and have to drive into town to work so my mileage is a little higher than most (but if I moved into town my rent would go up enough to make up the difference).   Including just a little weekend traveling, I'm averaging about $125 per month on gas - barely 10 years ago that would have been less than $30 per month.  Sure that extra ~$100 per month isn't a whole lot, but with the price of everything going up it's starting to mean more and more. 

And of course, any road trips have gotten very expensive now.  I like to travel to various conferences and conventions and what not.  A number of years ago the only thing that was an issue was how long I felt like driving.  I could travel just about anywhere for under $50-60.  Now, if I want to take a serious trip the gas will often spike as high a $200 for that one trip.  Now things like this are totally optional (and I've scalled back the number of trips I do because of that), but it's still aggravating to have to scale back my activities simply becaue it's costing so much more to get from place to place (particularly living in Charleston, SC - major events often hit Atlanta, Charlotte, or Miami instead).

[BBF]

Cabbage Heads !! ?? Nice going
Now we are going to call other nationalities with names.

[beemanbeme]

Let's see, if you don't want to punch a hole in every pristine piece of ground left on the earth, you should stop driving. Don't like higher food prices, stop eating. etc. Macgooch, you've got a real grip on things.  Burn your candle at both ends, save nothing back and then whine for the gov'ment to bail you out.  How long have you been a democrat?  

MGMordon, how long does it take a GH Bus to get from Charleston to Atlanta?  They still run you know.

[MGMorden]

MGMordon, how long does it take a GH Bus to get from Charleston to Atlanta?  They still run you know.

Anywhere from 7 to 12 hours, with a cost of $65.  Atlanta is one of the closer areas which comes in at around $100 to just drive it myself.  Miami is typically the most expensive place I'd drive, though for a few years I took an annual trip out to Louisville (haven't been making that one for a few years now though).  Given that I'd have to either rent a car or take a taxi around when I got there, the cost savings shrinks pretty rapidly.  That's also discounting the fact that I'd seriously hamper the amount of things I could actually carry back and forth.

[billy_56081]

  Everyone is clammoring for more drilling, why isn't anyone saying we should lower the national speed limit?  That would conserve oil immediately and drive prices down.  To the free market, saving 10 barrels of oil is the same as producing an extra 10 barrels.  Why not increase the gas mileage requirements AT LEAST up to China's standards?  This would also have a quicker effect than opening up ANWR.
  Lets say we open ANWR since it is so far away and none of us will ever see it...  What will stop them from drilling in our other wildlife refuges once we open this Pandora's Box?  Sorry, but I like my ducks...

Jim

Ok Barrak, why don't we just put a little more air in our tires and everything will be peachy. Geez the treetards know nothing, the little bit of land they would drill on in ANWAR would effect about as much as pulling one blade of gras out of your yard.

DRILL HERE DRILL NOW!

[ironglow]

Sad, isn't it ! When they could have done something that would help greatly immediately and in the future where were the Democrats ?
  They shutdown Congress and went on vacation not even allowing a vote...

   Below, see the Democrat's answer to $4 per gallon gasoline:

[beemanbeme]

I wasn't being facetious about GH bus. I read an article the other day about how they were coming back into vogue. I remember as a young Marine riding one from Portsmouth, VA to El Toro, CA.  And along the way we would pick up folks in the middle of no where and carry them a ways and drop them off again in the middle of no where.  
We have been spoilt. I see campers on bikes, both pedal and motor, with saddlebags and little pods that they tow behind them and they seem to do alright.  As the size of our vechicles have grown grander over the years, the "stuff" we needed to take camping has grown exponentially.

BTW, I am not against drilling in ANWAR as such. But only if there are concessions made and understandings. The oil is not so we can return to the glory days of $.50 gas and fat-azzed, soccor moms driving V8 gas hogs to pick up Jr at a school a mile away, nor can macho man drive his image making F350 (I'm not anti-Ford, I'm really not) to and from work.  4 cyclinder engines capable of 30+ mpg cars only will be sold to indiviuals and V6's will be sold to commercial concerns with a provable need for them.  Highway speed limits would be reduced and enforced. Gas would be rationed in such a manner that thru judious use of bikes and walking and car pooling, you could accumulate enough "credits" over a year to take a family motor trip. Or maybe have a two tier gas price: one with coupons and one without.  There's a lot of common sense ways to save gas instead of the "Holy Geez, there's only a little left. I'm gonna root and grab and get mine!" 

[MGMorden]

We have been spoilt. I see campers on bikes, both pedal and motor, with saddlebags and little pods that they tow behind them and they seem to do alright.  As the size of our vechicles have grown grander over the years, the "stuff" we needed to take camping has grown exponentially.

Yes but I'm not going camping (I do that but there's plenty of good local camp sites) - usually I'm going for either conferences, or for some type of convention.  It's not so much the amount of stuff I take with me - it's the amount I end up bringing back .

I don't need much space - I drive a little Hyundai Tiburon that has so little cargo space that it's baffling, but I do need a decent amount for bags/laptop/etc, and you still need to be able to move around the city once you get there, which means rental cars or taxis (which aren't cheap - I'm a private pilot with access to a small plane that I could technically fly out to those areas for pretty close to the  same cost as I could drive, and it'd be quicker, but that only gets me as far as the airport).

No matter which way you slice it, a 4x increase in the cost of gas over the last 10 years is going to be tough on people who like to travel.  Personally, I'm eager to see what we can do with electric.  The cars right now are too expensive and a ltitle too short range, but it is promising.  The Tesla Roadster for example (http://www.teslamotors.com/) can run for an average 2 cents per mile driven - converting the price of electricity into gas and that's close to 250 MPG in a cost comparison.  And it'll do 0 to 60 in 4 seconds with a top speed of 125 MPH.  No slouch in the speed department. 

I think once that technology matures a bit, it will be particularly attractive for most general transportation.  Just gotta get the cost down a bit as the roadster model Tesla is showing now runs $109,000.  They're working on 2 additional models though, one of which is looking to run about $30,000 which is getting more reasonable.  I'm sure within the next 8-10 years they'll have these things down to the $10,000-$15,000 range.  Of course these things aren't going to work for towing applications and such, but gas (and/or ethanol or biodiesel when the gas is gone or too expensive) will still be able to fill those niches as needed.

[ironglow]

  Beeman;
      I have to agree with most every conservation effort you suggested..and yes, no drilling so we can hve $.50 per gallon to waste..a comprehensive program is needed.

  MGMorden;
  Right choice on size of car...but perhaps next time a hatchback. It is amazing how much can be stowed on a business trip, especially with the rear seat folded.
  I had a Ford Focus hatchback (IMO good try, bad car). Now I have Toyota's smallest..a Yaris hatchback..smaller outside, just as big inside, with more free "bennies"
  and better gas mileage.

   45/70;
     Don't get too uptight about the "cabbageheads"  jest; it wasn't long ago when many of us here at Graybeard's (and around the USA) were accused of being some
  kind of retrogrades that like to cling to our "guns and Bibles" !
  That may portend what could be coming for gun owners and honest Christians in the future if enough real retrogrades vote for the "messiah rock star"..

[DakotaElkSlayer]

  Everyone is clammoring for more drilling, why isn't anyone saying we should lower the national speed limit?  That would conserve oil immediately and drive prices down.  To the free market, saving 10 barrels of oil is the same as producing an extra 10 barrels.  Why not increase the gas mileage requirements AT LEAST up to China's standards?  This would also have a quicker effect than opening up ANWR.
  Lets say we open ANWR since it is so far away and none of us will ever see it...  What will stop them from drilling in our other wildlife refuges once we open this Pandora's Box?  Sorry, but I like my ducks...

Jim

Ok Barrak, why don't we just put a little more air in our tires and everything will be peachy. Geez the treetards know nothing, the little bit of land they would drill on in ANWAR would effect about as much as pulling one blade of gras out of your yard.

DRILL HERE DRILL NOW!

Sorry, I didn't realize a "special needs" person such as yourself would be reading my statement.  If I would've known, I would've typed slower so you could maybe comprehend at least some of it.  Let me try; I am typing REALLY SLOW now.  A free market runs by a law of supply and demand.  To lower price you can either increase the supply or decrease the demand.  Republican Senator John Warner is pushing the 55mph national speed limit.  He states when Congress did that in 1974 it saved 167,000 barrels of oil a day.  This would decrease the demand of oil in this country and lower the price.  Now if you coupled this with the production of more oil, the price would drop even more.  Is this making any sense to you yet, or should I wake up my three-year-old to see if he can explain it to you better?  If you still don't get it, I think I could do an example for you that deals with your action figures so you can better understand.

Jim

[beemanbeme]

45-70, I was doing a good job of ignoring your remark but since IG touched on it, germans have been called krauts longer than you and I have been around.  And if you're wanting PC, I am certainly not the fellow to expect it from.  You can make it easier on your finer senses by putting me on ignore if you like.

[BBF]

Ironglow:  Please, by all means hang on to your firearms and Bible. I have no issue with that whatsoever

bee:  I could think of a number of terms to betitle other nationalities that would NOT be welcomed here. It seems some are fair game or even funny while others are taboo.
Re ignore, Nope, haven't done that to any but have speculated on some, so far you aren't on the  short list

[billy_56081]

  Everyone is clammoring for more drilling, why isn't anyone saying we should lower the national speed limit?  That would conserve oil immediately and drive prices down.  To the free market, saving 10 barrels of oil is the same as producing an extra 10 barrels.  Why not increase the gas mileage requirements AT LEAST up to China's standards?  This would also have a quicker effect than opening up ANWR.
  Lets say we open ANWR since it is so far away and none of us will ever see it...  What will stop them from drilling in our other wildlife refuges once we open this Pandora's Box?  Sorry, but I like my ducks...

Jim

Ok Barrak, why don't we just put a little more air in our tires and everything will be peachy. Geez the treetards know nothing, the little bit of land they would drill on in ANWAR would effect about as much as pulling one blade of gras out of your yard.

DRILL HERE DRILL NOW!

Sorry, I didn't realize a "special needs" person such as yourself would be reading my statement.  If I would've known, I would've typed slower so you could maybe comprehend at least some of it.  Let me try; I am typing REALLY SLOW now.  A free market runs by a law of supply and demand.  To lower price you can either increase the supply or decrease the demand.  Republican Senator John Warner is pushing the 55mph national speed limit.  He states when Congress did that in 1974 it saved 167,000 barrels of oil a day.  This would decrease the demand of oil in this country and lower the price.  Now if you coupled this with the production of more oil, the price would drop even more.  Is this making any sense to you yet, or should I wake up my three-year-old to see if he can explain it to you better?  If you still don't get it, I think I could do an example for you that deals with your action figures so you can better understand.

Jim

LIke I said Barrack put  a little more air in your tires! I know you libs like to push your agenda on others by "saving" something. But you really have no clue of reality. First it was 55 saves lives now its 55 save gas, but that don't rhyme. Can you imagine what the costs you are "claiming" you are saving are going to do to the frieght rate? And what are you and your treetard buddy AlGore doing to conserve? If your gonna talk the talk, walk the walk. Are you driving 55? Are you driving a hybrid? Do you have your AC shut off? How about you turn your heat down to 60 all winter, lead by example don't force your ideology on me.

Libs make me wanna puke.