.58 queations...

[Macbeau]

Hello to all.  I have been lurking here for a while - trying to soak in some good info.
I am not new to muzzleloading, .58 caliber or H&R / NEF rifles, but I am new to .58 in H&R rifles (and in-lines in general...)
I recently bought an older Huntsman in .58 (AJ prefix - 1972-ish MFG) and I have a few questions. 
1st, I can't determine definatively which breech plug I have.  It has a 209 "nipple" and the two spanner holes on either side, but it doesn't push out.  I tried to loosen it with some penetrating oil and tap it out with an old skirmishing rod I have, but no-go.  I am quessing that it's threaded.  I know at somepoint, H&R went to the push out plug, but I don't know when.  If that's the case, I guess I need to find a spanner.?.?.?  Who has them...?
2nd - I don't mind 209 primers, but I have 1000's of musket caps.  Are the 209 primer holders (little orange rubber thingys) necessary?  Which T/C muskets nipple is used with the H&R Huntsman?  I have seen at least two different threads.  Is breech fouling worse with musket caps?
3rd - I have seen lots of comments here against using minies and folks just using PRB or R.E.A.L. bullets with Pryodex or 777.  What's the problem with minies?  I have been shooting them for years in .575 - .580 (sized 1-2 / 1000th under bore size) with 50/50 beeswax / lard lube, in 26" - 33" barrels with 1:72 twist and getting awesome (MOA or better) accuracy from 50 to 200 yds.  Hell, I have taken several N-SSA national medals using minies and there is a broader range of styles and weights to use, if you cast.  I usually shoot 315gn - 350gn (SWC) minies on the light side and 570gn - 580gn on the heavy's...  That, and I can go 30-50 rounds between "fouling wipes"... Just wondering why minies were so unpopular.
Thanks in advance,

Macbeau

[Macbeau]

Hmmmmm....  Not much interest in this, It seems...
 

If in doubt, please check here...  Under the "Testimonials", I am 4th from the bottom (3rd pic from the bottom)...  There are a few other places that have testimonials from me, but I can't find them at the moment. 
[Go Coastals!]

http://www.whitacresmachineshop.com/

Again - I'd like to know if I have a screw-in or press in breech before I go wailing or torqueing on it to get it out. 
I'd like to know if 209 is better than musket caps and why and what T/C mucket nipple thread are on the ealy-70's H&R's.  Finally - I'd like to hear from folks who gave up on minis and why...   I'd also like to hear from those who like (or swear by) minis and hear about what works for you.
I am concerned as to why minis have fallen out of favor to PRB and REAL bullets in these rifles...

My inclination is to shoot what works for me in N-SSA skirmishing and just run with it- with a bit more horsepower...  I had hoped to help the membership here in that I don't see a lot of people giving minis more than a passing try, and I can outshoot a PRB, "powerbelt" or "powertip" or any wazoo "modern .58 bullet - and do it 30 to 50 times (between 50 and 200 yds) without needing to wipe the bore.  I have won lottsa meat and many medals that way...
Anyway - I'm just wanting to find out...

Anyone?....
 

[Macbeau]

On the Minie topic...  I see a lot of people here claim that the 1:66 twist on the older Hunstman's is "too slow" for minis...

eh hem...

The original Enfield rifles (1851 - and subsequent, later - BSA small arms trade rifles - in the 1850's and 1860's) specs called for a .577 lead Minie-style bullet of between 415gn2 and 505gns, with 65 grains of ffg (equivelant to 55gns of modern fffg), with a 3-groove, 1:72 twist barrel that was used in the 2-band (33"), cavalry carbines (23") and musketoons(26")...  On a guage-pattern system...
1:55 was deemed too slow...  1:80 was too fast...  er?  uhhhhh?  what in the world???

So!  Why are folks claiming that 1:66 is "too slow" for minis and that only PRB is suitable in these (Huntsman's)? 
Granted - I cast my own.  I am willing to measure my bore, pass them through an appropriate sizing die, make my own lube and lube them and measure powder charges (using a Belding & Mull) with fffg GOEX, Elephant, Swiss or what ever else is out there (never used Pyrodex, 777 or any of the other "substitutes"....), but why are they inferior?

Just curious...

[Redhawk45]

You have a screw in breech plug.  The older models were slide in that were held by a o-ring.  When you bought the 58 did it come with a wrenching tool?  If it didn't you might have to make your own. I don't know where you could find one off the top of my head.  Beween my dad, cousin, and myself we have 7 of them.  We all use round balls for ours.  I have been told also that the twist is to slow for maxi balls.  Hornady also made sabots for it (they are huge), the guy I bought my 58 was using them.  As you know each rifle is different and you can try them, who knows they might work.  Those sabots were working , the only problem was that I really had to clean the plastic that was left in the barrel.  I hope this helps with some of your questions.

[PHATINJUN]

I must of missed this post earlier sorry... if you don't have the spanner wrench your best bet is to make one. Put it in and turn CCW to remove. Can't help much more than that as both my .58's are push in with musket nipples. I do shoot Maxie Ball ets from Buffalo Bullet Co in both 405 and 380gr over55-70 grains of FFG not for target yardage as I use mine for hunting only at about max75yards .Really don't know what they shoot beyond that but they make meat very well. The areas I ML are normally snow covered and I love to hunt with the snow camo as I believe it to be the most effective on deer I tell you time and time again I have been able to get very close to them and with my tradbow experience know how to work the wind and terrain but that snow camo blows thier minds. I use the 209's in my .50's but really don't shoot them enough like you do to give much opinion on how dirty they get from extended shooting sorry. I know when I had my Encore ML I modified it to shoot the 25acp and that was much cleaner also have future plans for the 50 to do a 25acp conversion. I also shoot patched out of the .58's and for the most part don't make a decision on patch of minnie til minutes before I leave to hunt sometimes it's a coin flip sometimes whatever I grab first.But when the kills come fron less than 50yrds it don't really matter. Kurt

[Macbeau]

Thanks for the replies.
I didn't get anything else with the rifle that wasn't ON the rifle... It was a GunBroker special for $150... (ramrod, sights) and I have since deduced that it is a screw in breech plug.
I still havn't found a wrench / spanner, but I'll come up with something... I guess...
On anothe note - I have tried probably 20 different minie-style bullets for accuacy and power (before they blow a skirt or get radically unstable), and, oddly enough, the "minie" that I have had the best experience with (target and hunting - within 100 yds) has been the Lyman 20ga "sabot slug"...
 

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=236595

Seriously...  That was my N-SSA secret.  I won several medals and have take lotsa meat using this slug and 40 -50 (normally 42 grains in my musketoon) of GOEX 3F and CCI or RWS caps.  If you cast and are willing to size the bullets .001-.002 under and dip-lube them with a mix of 50/50 beeswax/hydrogenated lard (or Crisco)... you'll shoot sub MOA...  to 100yds... and be able to shoot 15- 25 rounds between swabs...

I bougth the Huntsman because it looked (and is) good and cost about 1/2 of what any of the barrels alone I have on my other rifles (.580 , .577, .575 - all 1:72, 3-groove, progressive depth rifling from Whitacre Machine Shop) and seems to be suitable for hunting in SE GA.  I have since ordered the orange rubber "209 carriers" and found some 209 primers, all though I am flush with musket caps... *sigh*
I will say  - I have 600 gn Pritchets that will out penetrate most 45/70 loads (using 70gns of GOEX 3F) and those "Pellet / Sabot" bullets look like the cannon rounds that N-SSA cannoniers use at Winchester to get 3" and 4" groups... only these are much smaller and cast well...
PRB, while accurate, is missing on mass and distance.  Most .570 RB is around 275 gn +/- and, if the sprue is present, limited to under 100yds...  A well cast (and slightly undersized sized and well-lubed) minie will go 300 yds+ and still punch through both sides of a Whitetail...
Just something to think about when ordering from Cabelas or Midway...

[trotterlg]

Buy or borrow a six sided 10MM 3/8 drive socket.  Using a die grinder or a hack saw file or cut away all the parts that does not look like a breach plug wrench, this one works perfect for mine and even lets me not remove the nipple.  Larry

[PHATINJUN]

Great idea Larry but I think his has the spanner type with the 2 holes in it. Still very easy to make a wrench for though. Kurt

[trotterlg]

The socket fits over the nipple and the two prongs go into the holes in the breach plug, then a socket wrench just unscrews it.  Larry

[PHATINJUN]

Larry your pictures are just to good...the close up makes it look way to big my BAD!! I haven't looked but did this make the FAQ's yet? Kurt

[Macbeau]

Hmmmmm...  Barring the lack of a "proper" (factory or aftermarket) spanner, that's not a bad idea, trotterlg!  Thanks!
I will have to see if my dremel-fu is strong with 10mm, 3/8" sockets!
I am expecting that it's gonna be a bi*ch to get out and have been soaking it in kroil.  The face of the plug (inside the bore) is dinged up and I am wanting to polish it to keep "cake" from building up and sticking too badly.  Does anti-seize (tape or liquid) help with re-removal?

Thanks in advance...

[PHATINJUN]

I use C5 type anti sieze in all my threaded plugs never had a problem. Kurt