How fast a non GC'd cast bullet?

[handirifle]

How fast can you push a non gas checked cast bullet (wheel weight) without leading badly?  Caliber is 38-55.

[Graybeard]

There is no simple answer to that question. Personally I don't like to push them over about 1000 fps but the only way to know is to push them down your barrel. It depends on the barrel, the bullet and the lube and how fast they go how much they lead or don't lead. Even two barrels that came off the assembly line one after the other aren't necessarily gonna give the same results.

In a rifle of the type you have if the bullet is about a thousandth over barrel diameter and the barrel is made correctly you might get by with much more. Revolvers complicate matters far more than rifles do.

[handirifle]

I'm currently pushing them about 1250-1300 with black powder, but am thinking of doing some loads with smokeless and was wondering just where the limit might be.  These are about .001" overbore.

Guess I'll just have to experiment and see.

[Graybeard]

I've pushed non GC bullets from my Browning BPCR to close to 1600 fps with no appreciable leading using bullets properly sized to the barrel and some excellent lube. It can be done of course. Mine were made from linotype and leading just wasn't an issue for me. From revolvers I prefer to keep the velocity much lower than that but from a single shot rifle I'm not sure where the limit might be really.

Getting the proper lube and enough of it is a real aid in keeping down the leading.

[Lloyd Smale]

IF you have a good barrel IF you have a properly sized bullet for that barrel and IF you have a quaiity lube you should be able to run at least 1500 with air cooled wws.

[Sweetwater]

GB & Lloyd-

I'm not up on "good lube". I've used Red Rooster from the late 80's and some fairly hard dark blue stuff that I don't know where it came from. Supposed to be for high pressure loads. Still, I've probably used more beeswax/Alox concoctions than anything else. Thought I'd try some of Veral's Lube (His soft sounds about right for my old Lyman 450 lubrisizer) and was looking to you guys for some recommendation here, as you both alluded to "good lube". This is a part of the science of shotting cast that I have neglected pretty much all these years. Leading hasn't been a particular problem overall, and I've been pretty good about proper fillout, proper sizing, and good amounts of lube. BUT...getting into the nuts and bolts of lube I have pretty much shied away from.

Thoughts?

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Graybeard]

Those hard lubes are mostly for the benefit of commercial casters as they stay on well during shipment to buyers. But they are not generally all that great at doing the job lubes are supposed to do. I've used more RCBS lube than all others combined and really like it. I do think Veral's soft lube is superior to it tho by how much I'm not sure as the RCBS has always served me well. I suspect I have a life time supply of Veral's lube on hand and I have more others than I'll likely ever use as well so I'm pretty well stocked up for life.

Those are the two I use most often and can highly recommend. Folks who use black powder seem to prefer a lube called SPG and it too seems to be an excellent all around lube. I think Lloyd makes his own lube.

[jhalcott]

  I've pushed bullets lubed with LEE liquid alox and felix lube to somewhat higher velocities than 2000 fps. These are always gas checked though. I have HEARD OF SOME GUYS GETTING CLOSE TO 1800 FPS WITH PLAIN BASED BULLETS, but I have never tried to get over about 1500. paper patching is a whole different story. here is a page of lube for your entertainment!
       http://www.bulletlubes.com/

[Lloyd Smale]

there are lots of good lubes out there. Lbt blue is a good one. Lars Cordoba lube is another Javalina or any of the nra formula lubes using bees wax and alox are decent lubes. Hard lubes just dont work well and well some guys have luck with lee tumble lube its never been a great lube for me. i make my own and there usually based either on felix lube or 5050 alox.

[adirondacker]

i only use alox,as i got like 50 sticks in a deal,until thats gone i doubt i'll change.i am pushing a 350 grn pb out of my 40/70 remington hepburn at about 1400 with absolutely no leading,that load is charged with t-boss.in my 38/55 marlin cb i am shooting a plain base 250 grn at around 1300-1350 with unique.no problems there either.both are cast with a #2 ish alloy.like stated before every bore is different.some guns will like cast better than others.most all my bullets are sized .001 over.good luck,adker

[Sweetwater]

Thanks for the recommendations, guys!!

I printed this out for reference.

THANKS!

Regards,
Sweetwater

[handirifle]

i only use alox,as i got like 50 sticks in a deal,until thats gone i doubt i'll change.i am pushing a 350 grn pb out of my 40/70 remington hepburn at about 1400 with absolutely no leading,that load is charged with t-boss.in my 38/55 marlin cb i am shooting a plain base 250 grn at around 1300-1350 with unique.no problems there either.both are cast with a #2 ish alloy.like stated before every bore is different.some guns will like cast better than others.most all my bullets are sized .001 over.good luck,adker

The alox you have, is it in sticks?  Mine is liquid, what's the difference, and if it's different, where do you get the stick alox?

[Lloyd Smale]

there two differnt alloxs. I would guess though that they both do the same thing. the advantage to conventionaly lubed bullets over tumble lube is that theres more on the bullet and when the bullet compresses it pushes lube out of the lube grove and into the barrel and that helps seal the gasses. Im sure tumble lubed bullets with there tiny lube groves have more of a problem doing that. ANothe advantage is that ive yet to see a tumble lubed bullet that gives me real good accuracy. Ive tried tumble lubing conventional bullet and just never got as good of results with it. The only time i use tumble lube is when im pushing bullets over 2000fps. then i will tumble lube them and convetionaly lubesize them. As to where to buy stick alox. You can buy javalina from midsouth or any other reloading supply outlet. or go here   http://www.lsstuff.com/index.html  and buy it for half the price. A real good lube that lars sells other then the alox lube is the corduba red.

[adirondacker]

thanks lloyd, saved me alot of pecking,adker

[kiddekop]

How fast can you push a non gas checked cast bullet (wheel weight) without leading badly?  Caliber is 38-55.

Here's some load data www.gmdr.com for cowboy loads using different powders.

[454Puma]

It really depends -I've run unchecked bullets at 1800-2100 fps out of my Puma 454. Also have run unchecked out of my'06 at 2400 fps no leading but my accuracy stunk! I now run them at 1600- 1700 fps and they are very accurate.

[docmagnum357]

In my experience, which is not thst great, it depends a lot more on pressure than velocity.  I am able to use eight grains of unique in my 629 without leading.  Ten grains and it leads quickly.  Using 4227 or 2400 at the same VELOCITY, and I get very little leading.  Go up th same PRESURE with either of those powders, and leading is similar.  The latest Lee manual describes this and there is something to it, although I don't know if it is the last word.

Also, for what it's worth, I believe that gas checks have more to do with scraping the leading out than they do with preventing leading in the first place.  I may very well be wrong, as I don't know much.  I do know that there is a very breif exposure to high temperatures on the bullet base, and that lead couldn't be melted by an acetylene torch in a second or two, but pressure will cause lead to"flow" like a liquid just as easy as temperature.  It is something to think about. 

Also, I have used plain old wheel bearing grease for lube many times, with very good results.  I just wipe the base of the bullet off on a rag, and seat as usual.  I know that grease will run when it is hot, but the bullet is a light press fit.  I have never had problems with poweder contamination that I know of. 

[Cat Whisperer]

In my experience, which is not thst great, it depends a lot more on pressure than velocity.  I am able to use eight grains of unique in my 629 without leading.  Ten grains and it leads quickly.  Using 4227 or 2400 at the same VELOCITY, and I get very little leading.  Go up th same PRESURE with either of those powders, and leading is similar.  The latest Lee manual describes this and there is something to it, although I don't know if it is the last word.
...

Pressure.  Is that to say leading would be more related to rate of accelleration than to velocity?

[Lloyd Smale]

thats usuallly the problem. When you kick up the pressure with a fast burning powder the bullet takes to hard of hit when the powder ignites. With cast bullets its allways better to achive peak pressure about half way down the barrel not in the chamber or forcing cone. A bullet kind of needs to be eased into the rifling. Now that considering you have a gun with proper dimentions and a good bore. Now if you have a handgun with chambers to big or a bore thats to big for the bullets your shooting it can sometimes be advantagous to hit the bullet hard to bump it up to fit. Now i ususally cure that problem by dumping or fixing any gun that has the problem. Another thing that people dont allways take into account with cast bullets conserning accuracy and how fast a bullet can be pushed and maintain accuracy without leading is twist rate. A real fast twist will play hell on a cast bullet. Most custom handgun makers will twist with a very slow twist barrel like a 1in20 or even slower. Only downfall to that is they do much better with heavier bullets then with light bullets unless the light bullets are really stood on.

    Now im going to go another route. Why are you conserned with really pushing plain based bullets. Theres only in my opinion one place for a fast cast bullet. thats in calibers under .35 where you need expansion to make a clean kill. Most guns .35 or bigger do fine with a good flat nosed bullet without expansion. As a matter of fact expansion can be your enemy. Cast bullets kill by punching a hole through the vitals. the flat nose displaces enough tissue to insure a quick kill. If your bullet deforms it will not allways penetrate well and can even nose dive. In testing the optimum speeds for most cast bullets are under 1500 fps. to cast a bullet hard enough to hit a game animal and not deform at over 1500 fps is impossible. In your 3855 using a 200-250 grain flat nosed bullet at 1500 fps will kill any deer or bear you shoot at if you place your bullet properly. As a matter of fact i doubt if factory 3855 is any faster then that.