Author Topic: 336 30-30 accuracy  (Read 3274 times)

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Offline SuperstitionCoues

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336 30-30 accuracy
« on: July 08, 2008, 06:45:58 PM »
What level of accuracy (e.g. group size) should I expect with a 336 CS that has peep sights?
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Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2008, 12:09:13 AM »
I have an old 336 adl with a 24 inch barrrel that used to be dads deer rifle. It will shoot factory 170 corelocks under an inch at a 100 yards with a lyman apature sight. At least it would when my eyes were younger. Id say a typical marlin should be able to do 2 inch if your capable.
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Offline Rangr44

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2008, 01:33:40 AM »
All my centerfire Marlins, .30-30's, .35's, .44 Mag's, .444's & .45-70's, have stayed under 2", as posted above - provided the shooter's holding them correctly, for best accuracy. Leverguns are much different animals than boltguns, in that respect. 

Scopes don't improve the accuracy much - but really do help game shooting at dawn/twilight.
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Offline STUMPJMPR

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2008, 01:39:53 AM »
less than 2" at a 100 is typical with almost any factory load.....

Offline Siskiyou

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2008, 12:17:12 PM »
I have a 336 with a 4x scope.  Thirty years ago the best groups were with Federal 170-grain loads.  Now days it prefers 150-grain Remington C-L in factory ammunition.

In the world of handloads it likes 150-grain Hornady round nose bullets, and bulk 150-grain Remington C-L. 

I have purchased around 6-boxes of Federal 150 grainers but have not tried them.  I have tried some Winchester 150-grain but do not hunt with them because the Remington C-L has proved superior in "my" rifle.
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Offline kernman

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2008, 02:10:52 PM »
I have been disappointed with the accuracy of my 336 W, 30-30.

I'm lucky to get 5 inches with a 3-9x Nikon Prostaff, using Remington or Federals. I know they say try different ammo, to see what your gun likes, but now I'm stuck with copper since I live in California's lead free zone.

I bought some copper Cor Bon, and another batch from Stars & Stripes. I haven't tried them yet. I'm not expecting much.

I read somewhere that you need to get these rifles accurized. I know some people are getting 2 inches out of the box. Do I need to have a gunsmith look at it?



Offline Keith L

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2008, 02:30:38 PM »
My 30 AW which is a 336 with downspec finish on the metal and most have hardwood stocks will consistently put five shots in less than an inch.  It was closer to an inch and a half until I did a trigger job on it.  I use Federal Premium ammo in it.  I have never loaded for it because I only shoot a few rounds per year sighting in and deer hunting.  It wears a 2X5 old time Japanese Tasco World Class.
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Offline kyelkhunter3006

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2008, 02:44:00 PM »
I have been disappointed with the accuracy of my 336 W, 30-30.

I'm lucky to get 5 inches with a 3-9x Nikon Prostaff, using Remington or Federals. I know they say try different ammo, to see what your gun likes, but now I'm stuck with copper since I live in California's lead free zone.

I bought some copper Cor Bon, and another batch from Stars & Stripes. I haven't tried them yet. I'm not expecting much.

I read somewhere that you need to get these rifles accurized. I know some people are getting 2 inches out of the box. Do I need to have a gunsmith look at it?



  Have you checked to make sure your scope mount and bases are tight?  Also make sure that your buttstock is tight and the forearm too.  I don't currently have a Marlin lever gun, but I've probably shot 20 different ones from .22 LR up to the 45/70, at least 10 of them were 30/30's, and I've never seen a 5" group out of any of them.  Some are 30 years old and some were brand new.  Not all of them shot 1" groups, but all were 3" or less at 100 yds.

Out of curiosity, what kind of mounts do you have on it?  Are they the high see thru ones?  Sometimes having a tall yet thin reciever will let the gun wobble a bit without you knowing it, if you aren't bearing down on it on the bench.  That could cause your groups. 

Also, remember that a gun with an exposed hammer has a much longer lock time than a bolt action, so if you aren't following through with your form while shooting, your groups are going to reflect that.

Offline Swampman

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2008, 02:59:17 PM »
With a scope mine will shoot 1" groups at 100 yards.  I don't waste my time with iron sights.

The only ammo I use in my rifles is Remington Core-Lokts.
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Offline DCRthe3rd

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2008, 06:46:51 PM »
My marlins will do 1 to 1.5 inches no matter what , the wifes marlin does 3 inches and there seems to be no changing that.

Offline kernman

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2008, 04:22:55 AM »
Elk Hunter,

I have checked the bases. I did not use locktight, although I bought some. I did not check tightness of forearm, or stock. How would I know how tight is tight enough?

I heard that barrel band torque must be just right or accuracy suffers. Is this true?

The mounts are weaver style, mounted low. I'm not crazy about the four-screw setup, as I believe there is too much room for play. Could I use other mounts that would prevent this?

Forget see through, I've heard too many bad things about them.

I'm willing to consider it might be my follow through and overall shooting form. I'm new to scopes and bench shooting, so I'm hardly an expert. I'm sure you all know a whole lot more than I do. (I went to scopes because my 52 year old eyes ain't what they used to be).

Offline kyelkhunter3006

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2008, 03:14:48 PM »
Loctite on scope bases is over-rated nowadays, what with hex head and torx head screws.  By four screws, I guess you mean the screws int he bases?  With the 30/30 recoil, that's more than enough, and most guns only have 4 screw holes anyway, regardless of the rifle/round. 

The forearms is going to have a little play in it, but if you shake the gun and it rattles or makes noise, it's too loose.  I'm sure that the barrel band could have some effects on accuracy, but I figure after all the years that Marlin's been making them, they've probably figured out how to do it. ;)

You can try resting the rifle on it's frame, with the forearm not touching the rest.  A lot of times that'll help accuracy, but I'm against shooting that way, because in the field, you're either going to holding the forearm or you'll be resting it on something to take the shot. 

As for the buttstock, just hold the reciever in your hand and try to twist the stock. Any play, it's too loose.  You can take off the recoil pad and use a proper sized screwdriver or socket (I'm not sure what Marlin uses nowadays) and try to tighten the bolt as much as you can.  If you groups are vertically stringing, then the buttstock needs to be tightened.

As for follow through, just make sure you aren't pulling your head up, jerking the trigger, etc.


Offline hillbill

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2008, 03:22:00 PM »
be sure yu check for any copper fouling in the bore.its kind of a shot in the dark but some guns are a whole different gun when the bore is totally clean.from what ive seen, copper is really hard to see in the bore, so if i have a suspect gun i just go thru the steps to remove it and then see how it shoots.

Offline hillbill

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2008, 03:26:54 PM »
another thought hit me. let a buddy or a couple buddies shoot it just to see how it does. ive shot buddies guns they couldnt git to group and hit just fine with them and vice versa.

Offline kyelkhunter3006

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2008, 10:01:05 AM »
Both of hillbill's comments bear checking into as well..  Especially letting one of your friends shoot it (make sure it's someone that you know can shoot well).  If they get good enough groups to suit you, then it's probably not the gun.

Offline kernman

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2008, 05:19:29 PM »
Great feedback, everyone, thanks. I will definitely try your ideas out on the range.

Regarding copper fouling, since I bought it I've put about 200 rounds of Remington core lokt, with the copper jackets. Would this add greatly to copper fouling?

And I'm wondering now when I start using the Barnes coppers will it add to the copper fouling problem? (Assuming my barrel has a copper fouling problem).

As I recall, one cheap solution is 50 percent vinegar, and 50 percent ammonia? Scrub with a bronze brush. Correct?

 

Offline Swampman

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2008, 11:58:34 PM »
I wouldn't worry about copper fouling.  Just lightly clean your barrel once a year right after hunting season.
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Offline kyelkhunter3006

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2008, 03:42:25 AM »
Well, that would depend on how old the gun is and if it's ever been cleaned of copper fouling.  If it's a brand new gun, the barrel would need some time to wear in and there could be copper fouling in it, forming in any rough areas.  If you've shot 200 rounds without cleaning, I'd clean it. 

On the other side, if it's an older gun, for example, say something from 1978 (for sake of argument), and it's had 50 rounds a year run down it, that would be 1500 rounds, and it's never been cleaned of copper fouling, you can bet that there's a build-up in there. Probably a couple of layers of carbon, copper, then carbon, copper, etc.

If a barrel has any rough areas at all, it's going to grab copper from any round, regardless of velocity.  People talk all the time about shooting a barrel to smooth it out, break it in, etc.  Well, if there's a build-up of copper in there, continued shooting isn't going to do anything to smooth out the barrel, all you're doing is smoothing out the copper lining that's built up in there. ;)

When you start with the Barnes bullets, you need to have a completely clean barrel.  The pure copper of the Barnes is different that the copper alloys used in jacketed bullets.  More than likely, if you don't start with a clean, copper free barrel, the build up of the alloy in the bore will strip copper off the Barnes bullets like crazy.

I don't really care for the ammonia solutions, although I admit that I do have a bottle of Barnes Copper Solvent that gets used VERY infrequently.  I've found that it really only works in smooth barrels with little copper fouling.  If you use the solvents, they will also eventually eat the bronze bore brush, since bronze contains copper.  I just use a cleaning jag and lots of patches.  Remember not to leave the solvent in the barrel for more than a couple of minutes, as the ammonia can etch the steel if left for too long, and that will only make the barrel foul even worse.

I prefer to use either JB Bore Paste (from Brownells) or the Remington Bore Cleaner (about $4 from Wal-Mart).  Both of them contain a vegetable matter abrasive that won't harm the steel in the barrel, but will remove any kind of fouling from the barrel.  The JB is a thick paste and it's more aggressive than the Remington.   The Remington has a light oil base and it's a liquid.  I usually drain a little of the oil out of the bottle to concentrate the particles.  The Remington is easier to use, clean-up, and easier to get as well.  It takes more elbow grease than the JB though. 

Take a patch, wrap it around a brush, coat it with the cleaner, and brush it through the barrel 20 times or so.  Then I run a clean patch through it, and repeat until I think the copper is gone.  Now here's what I use the Barnes solvent for:  After a couple of runs with the Bore Cleaner (or the JB), I patch all of it out of the barrel, run a patch soaked with the Barnes down the barrel, leave it for a minute, then run another lightly soaked patch with Barnes down.  If it comes out with blue streaks on it, there's still copper in the barrel.  Then I do the Bore Cleaner again, and then test again.  The patches of Bore Cleaner/JB will never look clean, so don't worry about that.  You can scrub a perfectly clean barrel and they'll still come out dirty looking.  After you've got the copper out, run a couple of oiled or mild solvent soaked (Hoppe's #9 or something else) to get the residue out, then a couple of dry patches, then another oiled one to protect the bore.  This sounds like it'll take a while, but honestly, it's a whole lot faster than the soak, wait, patch, soak, cycles of the Barnes Copper Cleaner.

Here's the thing to also remember.  Most barrels don't shoot their best when completely cleared of fouling.  After I find the load that I'm going to use, I rarely clean down to bare steel again.  I'll just do a run of the Bore Cleaner/JB every so often to knock the fouling build-up down to the point that accuracy is still there (some guns will take several hundred rounds before accuracy goes, some won't.  My Remington 7400 30-06 goes to hell after about 20 rounds), it'll only take 5 or 10 minutes if that, then oil it until next time.  Then once or twice a year, usually when it's either really hot outside or really cold outside (times when I want to be inside ;D), I'll clean them down to the bare metal, break them down, etc.  A really good thorough cleaning session.

Another thing that I usually do to any new gun I get is to take the Bore Cleaner/JB and run about 5 patches, 10 strokes each, through the barrel.  Saves using ammo to "break in" the barrel, and it seems to reduced the fouling a good bit too.

Offline teddy12b

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2008, 06:00:49 AM »
I have a 336W bought brand new in 2003.  I have a Nikon 3-9 prostaff on top of it and using the scope I get around 1" - 1.5" groups at 100 yards.  Taking the scope off I get about 2" or so.  I've had good luck shooting winchester, remington, & federal 170gr factory loads with the most accurate barely being the federal.  I handload 170gr sierra bullets and they shoot just as well.

If you're not getting good accuracy in your marlin check you scope mount if you're using one.  I used to have see-through mounts and my zero was always different between trips to the range.  I switched to a regular setup and haven't looked back.

Also, my rifle took a long time to break in for some reason.  When I first had it I hated it, and wanted to wrap it around a tree because it didn't shoot worth a darn.  After a few hundred rounds though, it's a keeper.

Offline Mannlicher

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2008, 11:46:33 AM »
It is a rare Marlin that will not give good accuracy.  I have a few, and the worst will put three shots of my 170 grain hand loads into an inch and a half, all day long.
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Offline hillbill

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2008, 02:44:52 PM »
i wouldnt get real wrapped up in moa accuracy from a iron sight rifle like what yu have. yu have prob the best sights for hunting your going to get with iron sights.if yu can consistently put put your shots into the kill zone on a deer, say a 8 inch circle,with iron sights, in the conditions yu plan to shoot in. then yu are already way above average as far as most deer hunters go.i know many guys with better eyesight will argue with me but yu put that bullet in the kill zone and yu will be a winner every time.

Offline kernman

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2008, 03:20:47 AM »
Elk Hunter,

I have "cleaned" it several times by soaking a bore snake with Hoppes #9 and running it through the bore. That's all.

What I think I will do it try out the copper and if I get decent groups, then the problem is resolved. If not, I think I will run some bore paste or clean as you suggested.

Looks like we might have two threads going here.

Superstition,

Didn't mean to hijack your thread, and I hope this helps. I tried it without a scope and at 100 yards I was luck to get 6 inch groups. And forget about lining up the sights in dark woods - it goes to black.

Offline kyelkhunter3006

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2008, 05:07:35 AM »
Also shoot your groups and then let the barrel cool completely between groups.  I've seen several Marlins that increased group size/raised point of impact/shifted sideways, etc, from shooting with a too hot barrel. 

Offline Tallwalker

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2008, 02:56:48 AM »
I've got a 336 in 30-30 with a straight stock that has been giving me problems with larger groups than I would expect, and they tend to string a bit vertically. The other day I noticed that the cap on the magazine tube (under the front sight) was hitting the barrel pretty hard so I relieved that, and am anxious to see what diffference that made. That close to the muzzle is a bad place to have erratic pressure!

Offline petemi

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2008, 03:55:14 AM »
I got my 336T .30-30 almost 50 years ago, sighted it in with the factory sights and left it that way for 30 years.  Later, as my vision crapped out, I added a scope.  That was sighted in and left without any further adjustment for another 20 years.  Today, it shoots 1 - 1  1/2 inch groups at 100 yards, centered on the 10 ring.  I couldn't ask for a nicer little rifle.  I've always shot Winchester 170 gr. Silvertips and can't recall a deer that needed a second shot......and, there have been a lot of deer over the years. :)

My son has a 336 scoped .30-30 that he left in the rack for nine years while he was gone in the Navy.  We were planning to hunt, so he got it out, cleaned it and took it out to our range to check the scope.  One shot, center of the 10 ring.

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Offline Robert357

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2008, 05:57:29 PM »
I have a 336 in 30-30 and it is very accurate on the handloads I have worked up for it, if I treat it correctly.  The three keys are first make sure you clean the bore well.  Second, make sure you let it cool down between shots.  Third, don't load the tube magazine full and the shoot it until it is empty.  The difference in the spring tension and difference in weight suspended from the barrel changes the vibrations of the barrel and impacts accuracy.


Offline Badnews Bob

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2008, 02:32:29 AM »
Try some wipeout spry foaming cleaner in that old bore its amazing what that stuff will clean out of your rifle.
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Offline Robert357

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Re: 336 30-30 accuracy
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2008, 01:39:48 PM »
Let me comment on bore cleaning a little.  First I really like the wipeout foam.  Great stuff.  However, when I have a really, dirty bore, I insert a cast lead bullet in the end of the barrel and use a rawhide hammer to seal the bore.  Then I put the rifle barrel side down in a large coffee can and clamp a towel wrapped stock in a vise to hold the rifle in a verticle position.  Then I carefully fill the bore from the chamber side until the barrel is full of either Ed's Red or Hoppe's #9.  Then I let it sit for a couple days (yes more than over night).

After it has sat for a couple days, I pore the stuff out and its is usually this blackish crud that comes out.  Truly amazing.  Then I take an aluminum rod and insert it in the chamber and pop the lead bullet out.  Next I start the cleaning process first with rags to get the loose gunk out then with brush then rag, then rag, etc.