22 Hornet confusion

[NebraskaHunter]

Hello.  I just started loading for the 22 hornet again.  I checked several manuals and read all the post here. I want to start with the hornaday 45gr hornet bullet and LiL Gun powder.  My confusion comes when I look at my newest hornaday manual and it list 11.9gr of powder as maximum?  But the previous hornaday manual list 13gr as maximum?  All the post I read here use between 12 and 13 grains of powder.  So what is safe?  After checking here for some loads I was going to start with 12.5gr and the 45gr hornaday hornet bullet with a cci small rifle primer and winchester brass.  I am using a new CZ 527 rifle.  I am sure it is strong but I don't want to damage it by using over pressure loads.  I would welcome your advice and your loads.
NebraskaHunter

[stimpylu32]

NH

This is just a guess but the chances are good that when Hornady last tested their loads for this round they found that the powder profile had changed a bit , which is not uncommon from lot to lot or the bullet jacket had been changed . 

I see that Hodgdon's still lists their data at 12 to 13 grains for the 45g Hornady SP . Myself I would start with the Hornady start load and work up just to be on the safe side as that is the newest data for that bullet .

stimpy

[LaOtto222]

I have been messin' around with the Hornet myself. I have both the Hornady 6th edition and 7 th edition. In the rifle section - Both have Lil'gun listed as a starting load of 9.5 grains and a max load of 11.7 grains using WW cases, Win srp and the 45 grain Hornet bullet. In the pistol section they have the same starting load but go up to 13.1 grains, in both manuals. I would stick to the rifle data, since you are talking rifle. I am not sure where you got the 11.9 figure from. Speer in their newest book Manual #14 (in the rifle section) uses WW cases, CCI 500 (small pistol) and their 45 grain bullet has a starting charge of 12.0 grains of Lil'gun and a max of 13.0c. They also warn against using small rifle primers with their loads, they said it will give dangerous over loads and more erratic results. I have several loads ready to try out right now. One of them is the WW Case, CCI 500 primers, 12.0 grains of Lil'gun and the Hornady 45 Hornet bullets (the starting load for the Speer manual. The bullets are seated far away from the lands and my gun has demonstrated in the past that minimum loads listed are minimum loads in my gun. A Handi SL with a 20" barrel, I also have a Savage model 40 and it has demonstrated to me that it will not handle the same loads that are safe in the Handi.  Remember your gun is a CZ and has a .223 bore not a .224 bore. I would most certainly start at the minimum and proceed be very cautiously. BTW even though Lil'gun looks great on paper, I have not had the best of luck with it. I keep trying different loads, but I get erratic results. I get fliers, a blown primer now and then, even with minimum loads and when run over a chronograph, high SD figures and some times as much as a 300 fps range . I keep coming back to it like a moth to the flame, because of the promised high velocities with medium and heavy bullets (for the Hornet). I have been having better luck with H110 or WW296 with light bullets 34 - 35 grain. I get smaller SD figures and just under listed velocities with the suggested loads, as expected, because of a 20" barrel. Good Luck and Good Shooting

[NebraskaHunter]

Hi  LaOtto222
Thanks for the reply. I got that 11.9 figure from memory. I am not at home right now and don't have the manual in front of me. I was wondering if someone would catch me on that. AND YOU DID!  I did enjoy the rest of your post as well. I did not get the 22 hornet so I could make it a 223. I will stick with the rifle data in the Hornaday manual. I must say that before reading your post I was really tempted to ignore the manual and go with 12.5gr.  But someone else in another post on the 22 hornet made a good point when he said you don't get a hornet because you want the highest velocity. If that is the case get a larger caliber. I think he was EXACTLY RIGHT!!!  I got the hornet for low noise and fun accurate low cost shooting. No need to hot rod it. Thanks again for the reply.
NebraskaHunter

[NebraskaHunter]

Hey LaOtto222
Let me know how that load shoots. If it shows promise I will try it.  I will also post my results next week. I will be shooting the gun on Monaday.  I am going to start with 11gr of Lil'gun and use the cci small rifle primer.  I am also going to load up 20 rounds with winchester 296 powder for a test.   I will let you know how it goes.
Nebraska Hunter

[LaOtto222]

If the river doesn't raise and God willing I will be doing some shooting over the week end. I have several 22 Hornet loads to try and some 221 fireball rounds to try out in my Remington 700. I have got some other obligations (a very large yard and something called mowing) before I can have fun and it is supposed to rain this week end here. I have been posting the results from my Hornet in the Handi section. You can browse through that for some earlier results. I really like the Hornet, but it can be a little fussy. The 221 Fire ball uses just a little more powder (10- 12 grains verse 15-17 grains), but the cases last longer and you get a little more velocity from it and it does not seem to be as picky about loads.

[Graybeard]

SAAMI Specs for the .22 Hornet still call for .223" diameter barrels and bullets. Some are .223" and some are .224". Mix a .224" bullet with a .223" barrel and max book loads become bombs. Ask me how I know. 

[Paladin]

Graybeard-how experienced are you?

[NebraskaHunter]

OK Graybeard. I will bite. How do you know?
Nebraska Hunter

[LaOtto222]

OK, I tried the Lil'Gun and 45 grain Hornady Hornet bullets. I shot them out of a 20" barrel (Handi 22 Hornet SL) I used CCI 500 primers and WW cases. I have three different targets with this load on each of them. Not bad, but nothing to write home about. BTW my gun hates the 40 V Max bullets. It has demonstrated over and over it does not like them.

Shot at 50 yards average Vel = 2666; SD =26.61 Notice the flier going way off?



Shot at 100 yards Average Vel= 2649;SD = 40.43



Shot at 100 yards Average Vel = 2669; SD = 18.74

[Graybeard]

OK Graybeard. I will bite. How do you know?
Nebraska Hunter

Once a few years back I violated my standing rule to NEVER EVER shoot anyone's reloads but my own. I had a friend who had been shooting his own .22 Hornet for a long time using his reloads and they worked well for him. I had a Browning Low Wall .22 Hornet which after the incident I called Browning and was informed they used .223" barrels in them not the more common .224" most everyone uses these days.

The load was a max or at least very near max load in barrels of .224" and used .224" bullets. On firing the first in my rifle the case came from together to apart quite litterally. It came out in pieces but luckily no harm was done to me or the rifle.  Lesson learned .224" bullets and max loads do not mix with .223" barrels.

Graybeard-how experienced are you?

Oh I reckon I've been reloading since about the early '70s. I'd guess by now I've loaded a few hundred thousand rounds. Is that enough experience for ya?

[NebraskaHunter]

My first range test of CZ527

The loads
10.3 gr win296
50gr sierra bullet
ww case
small rifle primer.

My CZ did not like this load at all. I got 3 inch groups. I shot 50 rounds.  Every group went 3 inches.  Might get one or two shots touching and three shots all over the place. No good in my gun.

Next load
11.5gr Lil'gun
45gr hornaday hornet
ww case
small rifle primer

This load show promise.  My best group with this load went 1 1/8in for 5 shots at 100yds.  This started shooting better the more rounds I got through the barrel.  It started out at around 2 inches and got tighter each time I shot another group.  After shooting around 50 rounds through the gun without cleaning it the accuracy started to drop off again. This is where I stopped.

I took the gun home and cleaned the bore. I took my time and got it as clean as possible. I then loaded up 2 new loads to try.
I will be trying next

13gr Lil'gun
40gr sierra hornet
small pistol primer
ww case.

I also loaded the same bullet with

11.5 gr ww296
40gr sierra hornet
small pistol primer
ww case.

I want to see if the 40gr bullets do any better.  I will shoot it again in a couple of days.  I have not given up on the 45gr hornaday yet. But I like the looks of the 40gr semi pointed 40gr hornet bullet. Makes a nice looking loaded round.  I dont want to shoot anything lighter than 40gr. I will let you know what happens.
NebraskaHunter

[LaOtto222]

I think you will find that the small pistol primers give you better results. I messed around with Remington 6 1/2 because I had them on hand. I then bought some CCI 500 primers. I think I am getting slightly better results with them. I looked for some AA 1680 to try with the heavier bullets (45 - 50 grains), but could not find any. I ordered 2 pounds through a local store and I was getting low on H 110 for the lighter bullets in the Hornet and for my 357 and 44 Mag so I ordered 2 pounds of that as well. They said it would be 3 - 4 weeks before I got it. I think I am going to suspend shooting the 22 Hornet until the new powder arrives.

[NebraskaHunter]

I agree. Those groups were not quite there yet were they?  I will be going out this morning and testing the loads I just listed.  The only thing I wanted to add was about pressure signs.  The 2 loads I already tried seemed to be very mild indeed. The cases looked like new after shooting and the primers were not flat or cratered. They did not extract hard.  The loads were really quiet to. I took off my ears to listen for a few rounds. I ended up leaving them off.  They were both mild loads in my CZ.  But it was wise to start there. I have more confidence now in the loads I am reading about on these post.  Look forward to your next post.
NebraskaHunter.

[Graybeard]

No matter how quiet you "think" those loads are they are loud enough to cause hearing loss. Put the hearing protection back on and leave it on. Unless of course you'd like to hear the buzzing in your ears 24 hours a day that I do. Don't be stupid like I was just one day and am paying for it the rest of my life.

[stimpylu32]

NH

I remember a link that Quickdtoo had posted some time back that showed the noise level of 22LR and up , you would be suprised at the damage that even those little rounds can do to your hearing .

Be smart and keep the muffs ON . 

stimpy

[NebraskaHunter]

It was a beautiful morning in the Omaha Nebraska area and it was nice to take them off.  I did not think just one session could cause much damage. Guess I was wrong and I don't really want to find out the hard way.  Thank you both for the reminder.
NebraskaHunter

[NebraskaHunter]

I have completed my quest for the right load for my 22 hornet. I did find that the 40gr bullets with Lil'gun and a small pistol primer did the trick. The loads I tried are==

40gr sierra hornet bullet (.224)
13gr lil'gun
small pistol primer (cci)
Seated to the depth recommended in the sierra manual.

This load was superbly accurate in my cz 527. It shot as good as I could hold the rifle. I got 5 shot groups from one ragged hole to the largest group of 1 inch. When I did my part the groups ranged 1/2 to 3/4 inch.
this load was so stable and predictable that I am sure the variation in group size was my shooting ability. I settled on this load. I don't know for sure without a chronograph but suspect speeds of 2800fps.

I also tried
45gr hornaday
296 powder
small rifle primer.
This grouped around 1.5 to 2 inches.

also tried
sierra 50gr
lil'gun powder
small rifle primer.
this grouped around 3 inches.

I don't have to look any futher. The 40gr sierra hornet bullet and lil'gun is good enough for me. While I like heavier bullets I will use whatever shoots the best. I don't think anything I shoot with the 40gr bullet will know it wasn't hit by a 45 or 50gr slug. I wasn't looking for speed but the 40gr load that shoots good for my gun is pretty darn fast at a predicted 2800 to 2900 per manual.  As an added bonus those semi pointed round nose bullets fit my clip perfectly and function just as they should. I love the look of the semi point round. It just looks like what I think a hornet cartridge should look like. Now to get out and use it.
None of the heavier bullets did well in this cz rifle.  Thanks to those who took the time to list loads for me to try. It steered me to the 40gr bullets.
Nebraska Hunter

[Autorim]

Just my experience with the Hornet which is with the the Ruger No. 3 carbine. My standard load is the Nosler 45 grain Hornet bullet over 11.5 grains of IMR 4227 with the Remington small rifle benchrest primer. In my rifle I seat to an OAL of 1.820 inches which is over spec and does buy me a bit more powder space. This gives me a bullet jump of .005 inches off the rifling. I can get by with this in a single shot rifle and is very accurate.

My rifle seems to prefer the 45 grain Nosler over the ballistic tip and other pointed bullets for some reason. This load chronos 2648 mean with SD of 28 in my rifle.

Always wear hearing protection - even with the .22 rimfire. I'll bet Graybeard and I have a lot in common. In the old days, I shot everything and operated lots of construction equipment with no ear protection. Not deaf now, but sure can't hear well. I am 68 and have been loading since about 1962.

If I am shooting larger calibers, I wear plugs and muffs. When you lose your hearing, you AIN'T going to get it back - even with hearing aids. They just amplify the sounds you can hear anyway.

Autorim

[Paladin]

the problem with getting old I guess, what you say and what ya mean are two different things. Graybeard I meant the experience you had with the different dia. barrels, not your loading experience.

[calvon]

Some people have one year of experience repeated thirty times.
Others have thirty years of experience.

My money would be on Graybeard belonging to the latter group.

Me, I've been reloading since 1960 — one year of experience repeated forty eight times.

[Ladobe]

Some people have one year of experience repeated thirty times.
Others have thirty years of experience.

My money would be on Graybeard belonging to the latter group.

Me, I've been reloading since 1960 — one year of experience repeated forty eight times.

I really like your thinking.   I have one year of experience repeated forty eight times PLUS 1 (1959).   LOL


To back up what Bill said about the Browning Low Wall Hornet...  I had one also, knew it was a .223 barrel, but still only shot .224 bullets in it (33 gr. V-Max).   When I worked up the load for it (as I do for every firearm) I found a sweet spot well below book max or any pressure signs, so never had a problem.     Not so with another gent I knew who had one... he pushed book maximums with .224 bullets and had several case separtions before he asked why.   He didn't know it had a .223 barrel.   He and the rifle survived, but it did get his attention.

[Graybeard]

the problem with getting old I guess, what you say and what ya mean are two different things. Graybeard I meant the experience you had with the different dia. barrels, not your loading experience.

I've really not messed around with the Hornet all that much. That Browning low wall is what I've shot the most. I was not aware it was a .223" barrel when I got it my fault I supposed for not checking but modern rifles haven't used that diameter in many years other than Browning for some strange reason.

I violated one of my cardinal rules of using no one's reloads but my own up front and he had loaded pretty much if not fully max with it in his rifle. Mine with the .223" as WAY too hot for that load. It didn't take me long to figure ut something was very much not right. I then called Browning to discuss it as I knew the load shouldn't have been that much over pressure as the fellow is a very experienced reloader and while willing to go book max isn't prone to go over that. I found out it was a .223" barrel and began loading for it accordingly.

I used both .223" and .224" bullets just fine in it but ya need to know it's .223" when using .224" bullets so you can back well off book max loads.

I have an NEF Hornet but haven't even taken it out of the box yet. The Browning is the only Hornet rifle I've spent any time with to date. It's really just a round I've never bothered with. I bought both rifles with full intentions of turning them into .25-20s. I was unable to find a suitable set of iron sights for the LW so abandoned the idea. I'll likely shoot the NEF a bit and if it seems OK will have it rebored to .25-20. Long story but just a cartridge I've wanted since the days when my age was still in the single digits cuz I found an empty cartridge in a stream bed one day. Been wanting one since and so far have not made it happen. I likely will using the NEF as it's about the kinda rifle I picture in my mind the fellow who fired that round all those years ago might have been using. I'd really love to find a Winchester 92 so chambered and might have a Rossi reworked to it some day.

[LONGTOM]

NH

I remember a link that Quickdtoo had posted some time back that showed the noise level of 22LR and up , you would be surprised at the damage that even those little rounds can do to your hearing .

Be smart and keep the muffs ON . 

stimpy


I wish I would have had a PC and that link back when I was a kid/young man and started down the long road in the world of shooting!

CAN YOU PLEASE SAY THAT AGAIN ONLY A LITTLE LOUDED!!! 

Please take mine and the others advice and USE THOSE MUFFS!!! 

After almost 50 years of shooting I have the honor of listening to the crickets serenade me 24/7 for the rest of my life!
Left ear over 50% lose and the right ear over 65% loss of hearing.
For me the two worst calibers are the 22lr, especially in a hand gun and the 30 carbine.
They both will make my ears ring with sharp pain if I don't have my plugs in.
Trust me, YOU DON"T WANT TO GO DOWN THAT ROAD!!! 


Good luck and keep it safe, both in the loads you use and the health issues that come with the wonderful world of guns.


LONGTOM

[Graybeard]

For me the two worst calibers are the 22lr, especially in a hand gun and the 30 carbine.

I would expand on that and say that the .22 Magnum in a revolver, the .30 Carbine in a revolver and the .357 Magnum in a revolver especially a short barrel one are the very worse culprits going for hearing damage or at least so they seem to an old fart who long ago tried them all without protection. The .223 in a short barrel rifle and especially the AR types seem about as bad to me.

Yeah I listen to the same serenade 24/7/365 as you ain't it fun. 

[john keyes]

Do you guys wear safety glasses/eye protection every time you shoot?

I confess I do not, and I hardly ever once in a blue moon shoot factory ammo, but ironically factory ammo is probably more dangerous and prone to mistakes contrary to what those who look down on reloaders think.

I was flipping through a NRA magazine and Bryce Towsley mentioned that every time you pull the trigger on a gun you should have your eyes protected.

I figure my times coming when a case ruptures even though I throw them away (where other reloaders can't find them) after a few times.

Lately I'm reading about mishaps concerning RL#7 mixed up with accurate? 7.

[LONGTOM]

Very good point JOHN!

I must confess to the fact that the only time I ever wore eye protection was once when I was invited to a skeet shoot in lower VA, it was mandatory.
Wasn't that bad, don't know why I don't use them all the time.
The same reason I still smoke.

Still DUMB I guess just not young anymore.
I guess I am just the old dog that is to lazy to leard new tricks.
Sometimes I sit back and wonder how I was ever able to make it this far!


LONGTOM

[Larry Gibson]

Note that the powder profiles have not really changed. What has changed with respect to the .22 Hornet is case capacity. New cases are thicker than old cases and case capacity is less.  With the small capacity of the Hronet it does not take much to increase pressures.  BTW; I've shot a lot of .22 Hornets over the years (currently have 4 of them) and found the .224 bullets always shot better. This was even in so called .223 barrels. 

Larry Gibson