Author Topic: conversion cylinder questions  (Read 2807 times)

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Offline ncc1701a

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conversion cylinder questions
« on: December 22, 2007, 03:04:38 PM »
 I am thinking of getting an R&D drop in conversion cylinder for my Uberti 1858 Remmi .44 cal.  I got it about 2 months ago, new from MidwayUSA.  I have a couple of questions.

1.  Are the cylinders truly drop-in and ready to go to the range after cleaning them?

2.  Does the "COWBOY AMMO" that is to be used have similar ballistics to ball, powder and wad?  Right now I have the pistol sighted for about 25 yds.  Will the "COWBOY AMMO" keep the same    point of impact or close to cap & ball loads.  My load is 25 grains of APP and a .451 round ball.

3.  I have seen "COWBOY AMMO" in black powder substitute and smokeless.  Can I use both?  Is the smokeless "COWBOY AMMO" loaded down so it can be safely used in R&D conversion cylinders?

4.  How durable and or reliable are these cylinders.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Offline Flint

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Re: conversion cylinder questions
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2007, 05:21:52 AM »
From my experience.....

1. In most cases the cylinders are drop-in, the gun can be too close in some cases, the rounded corners in the cylinder window may rub, and some material might need to be removed from the frame there, no big deal.  I had to do that on two out of seven.  Sometimes the hand needs to be adjusted,  more so with a Kirst than an R&D.

2. "Cowboy" ammo is basically lead bullet loaded standard factory 45 Colt.   That as opposed to hot loads "safe" in a Ruger or TC.  Ballistics would not be the same, as the bullet is double the weight of the round ball.  Even if you handloaded a round ball with your standard cap & ball charge of black powder or sub, it would still have a higher velocity as the cartridge is more efficient. 

With the heavier bullet it will probably shoot a bit higher, but they shoot close enough for the ranges and targets at a CAS match.  I can hit a 200 yard steel plate with the R&D cylinder in an Uberti revolving carbine.

3, R&D (and Kirst) cylinders are perfectly safe with smokeless powder, the cylinder is modern 4140 and 4150 steel.  The frame can take it (not the brass frame).  Pietta barrels are softer than Uberti, but I've had no problem except for a few that needed the barrel throat forcing cone cut properly.  The older Piettas were terrible there.

4. The cylinder will outlast the gun by a few centuries.  Consider the gun the throw-away part.  The workmanship and quality of the cylinder far surpasses the gun you put it in.
Flint, SASS 976, NRA Life

Offline WILD_WEASEL

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Re: conversion cylinder questions
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2007, 04:43:34 PM »
I use an R&D conversion in my 5 1/2 Ruger Old Army.  Ended up having to send the gun and cylinder to Taylors' gunsmith to have cylinder fitted, and yes, it was worth it!  I shoot my own reloads of a 200gr LRNFP over 8.0 gr of Unique that shoot close to point of aim. 

Offline jd45

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Re: conversion cylinder questions
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2008, 02:42:17 PM »
After a long search, I finally found a Uberti New Model Army Remington, (aka 1858), & guess what!.......it had the R&D .45 Colt Conversion cylinder along with it from Taylor's. Flint's right.....it's a drop-in, at least mine is, now I don't know if there was any gunsmith-fitting done on it or not. I bought it like-new in box for $489.50. After firing it, I drifted the front sight a little to the left to make the POI dead-on & am shooting minimum charges of TrailBoss & Hi-Skor 800-X with 200GR & 250, & 255GR lead bullets.  With a 6 o'clock hold on the bull at 25yds, I strike POA with the 200s & dead in the bulls eye with the 250s. I got the loads off the Hodgdon site & the pressure is no higher than 9100psi.......no problem with the material & design of this revolver. I get 660fps with the heavy ones, & 760ish with the lighter ones. I'd like to give Kenny Howell of R&D a big "ATTABOY" for the design & machining of this accessory. The throats measure .453" & the chambers are bored on the low side of SAAMI Spec. The barrel groove diameter is .454". Flint, I checked the Black Hills site & their .45 Colt Cowboy ammo moves at 725fps w/250gr bullet. Is THAT the laywer-proof level to which "standard" .45 Colt ammo has sunk, I ask you? It used to be advertised at 860fps, I believe. Say it ain't so, Joe! jd45

Offline jd45

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Re: conversion cylinder questions
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2008, 02:49:10 PM »
P.S.........how I wish my gun had the strength of Wild_Weasel's ROA, so I could stoke it up for deer, BUT, you gotta take what you can get. I envy you, Wild_Weasel! jd45

Offline WILD_WEASEL

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Re: conversion cylinder questions
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2008, 04:20:55 AM »
Of my wheel guns, I have to say that the ROA with R&D cylinder gives me the most enjoyment.  With the conversion cylinder I would not exceed 8gr of Unique with a 250gr cast bullet.  I've referenced that load back with older reloading manuals to the early 50's and see no need to change.  When shooting C&B I have switched to Remington #10 caps, as CCI #11 Standard and Magnum caps were giving my too many misfires.  The Remington #10 caps with the Pyrodex 30gr pellet, wonder wad, and Speer .457 lead ball have performed without a misfire since I started using them 75 rounds ago.  My gun shoots 6" low at 25 yards with C&B but POA with the R&D and the above 45 Colt standard/cowbow loads.

Offline jd45

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Re: conversion cylinder questions
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2008, 04:37:50 PM »
If I could just ask a question regarding the strength of the Uberti mfg'd steel cylinder-frame 1858 Remington replica revolvers related to the use of the carrtridge cylinders? I'd appreciate your feedback. I talked to a technical assistance guy at Benelli, the importer, who told me he understood the cylinder frame is a casting, not a forging, so not as strong as it would be, but it is steel & it has the topstrap, which does add strength, as opposed to the Colt types, which are "open-tops". What might be the SAFE upper limit for .45 Colt cartridges? Please understand, I'm NOT looking to "push the envelop"......just don't want to be stuck with "mouse-fart" loads if I don't have to be. Thanx for the feedback, jd45

Offline WILD_WEASEL

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Re: conversion cylinder questions
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2008, 04:53:19 AM »
In my ROA/R&D 45 Colt Conversion 8gr of Unique under a 250gr cast bullet is the hottest load I shoot and trust me it is not a mouse fart load.  If your worried about pressure I'd suggest 7 to 8 gr of Unique under a 200gr cast bullet, which comes close to the original ballistics of the 44-40.  Comparatively these are milder loads that also Get-R-Done.

Offline jd45

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Re: conversion cylinder questions
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2008, 01:46:17 PM »
Thanx, Wild_Weasel. I'm aware your ROA is head & shoulders above my gun in strength, so I wouldn't dare try 8grs of Unique under a 250, but 7 or 8 under a 200 might be an interesting option. I think I should touch base with Alliant tho, & see if they can give me a pressure level with both 7, 7.5, & 8grs, just in case. One thing I noticed is that the B-C gap is very tight when I install my cartridge cylinder, which could affect pressures. Thanx again, jd45

Offline Flint

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Re: conversion cylinder questions
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2008, 11:37:03 AM »
It is not the receiver that takes the pressure from the cartridge, but the cylinder, and both R&D and Kirst are modern, smokeless proofed steel.  The only caveat is the thin walls of the Remington cylinder due to the "bolt circle" and the overall diameter.  Standard SAAMI loads are safe.

Recoil-wise, the Remington has a flat faced breech and the cylinder as well, so they are easier on the parts under recoil than the Colt, as far as battering the breech face.  The cap & ball barrels tend to be soft (particularly the Pietta) so the forcing cone takes more of a beating.  The cartridge bullet is both heavier and harder than the round ball, but I haven't seen any stretching of the frame.  For Colt types, the conversions are harder on the cylinder arbor threads and the wedge, but they seem to hold up pretty well.

There are two Uberti frames, the cast one, as used for years for the cap & Ball, and the new, slightly larger frame, made of forged steel used for the "Conversion"  This new, larger frame is also available for the cap & ball, and has a larger radius to the center of the bore, therefore, thicker walls.  A Kirst or R&D cylinder would have to match that new frame, and I haven't seen any reference to it.  The Uberti factory conversion is a six-shot revolver, so the chamber spacing has to have been increased.

The R&D or Kirst cylinders are better made and of higher grade steel than the entirety of the Pietta or Uberti revolver, and that makes the revolver the throw-away part, when worn out......  Hence the high price of the cylinder, beyond being made in the USA.

The Uberti factory conversion is made of higher grade steel (in all parts) than the cap & ball they have made in the past.
Flint, SASS 976, NRA Life

Offline jd45

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Re: conversion cylinder questions
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2008, 04:06:24 PM »
Flint, I appreciate your input AND heretofore unknown, (at least on MY part) info, regarding the cartridge conversion upgraded, (strength-wise) revolver. I have to say I'm surprised to read this, as one shootin' buddy of mine has been telling me Uberti has discontinued production on the 1858 Remington, in favor of other revolvers that're more in demand. Does this make sense to you? Now, do you think I ought to go to the trouble of calling Dixie, an authorized Uberti dealer, to ask about the availablity of the forged "cartridge-conversion" cylinder frame component, to fit to my gun? And lastly, a follow-up on Wild_Weasel's recommendation........I talked to Ben Ammonette at Alliant Powder, who said, while they don't have data for such low charges of Unique with lighter-weight bullets, as 200grs, he quickly went to his Lyman data, which must be their most recent, because they had pressure data, which means they're not using a Ruger Blackhawk anymore, but a vented test barrel. He said they list 8.6grs for 916fps @ 8700CUP.........so I'm safe using 7 to 8grs....hell, I might even try the 8.6! What do you think about that forged cylinder-frame? Is it really necessary? Thanx for the feedback, jd45

Offline jd45

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Re: conversion cylinder questions
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2008, 03:08:12 AM »
Flint, after re-reading your post about the new Uberti parts, it seems to me I just better stick with what I've got. Thanx, jd45