Loading powder in 358 Win. case

[Duckhunter39480]

I have found that getting the maximum powder charge into a 358 Win. case is close to impossible.  I am loading 180 gr. Hornady SSP or Speer FP.  A medium charge of almost any powder  gets into the case neck which results in a compressed charge.  I don't think I can get enough powder into the case behind a 200 gr. or 225 gr. bullet to achieve good ballistics.  Can anyone help with this problem?

[yooper77]

What kind of powder are you using?

Compressed powder charges are fine as long as you are working up loads to fine the most accurate one, all the while looking for high pressure signs.

I handload for the 243 Winchester, 7mm-08 Remington & 308 Winchester and most always develop a compressed load that works well for me using IMR-3031, IMR-4320, IMR-4064 & IMR-4350.

yooper77

[AtlLaw]

I have found that getting the maximum powder charge into a 358 Win. case is close to impossible. <snip>  A medium charge of almost any powder  gets into the case neck which results in a compressed charge.  I don't think I can get enough powder into the case behind a 200 gr. or 225 gr. bullet to achieve good ballistics.

Funny you should ask!    I've been working up a .358 load for my Savage 99 with 200 gr. Rem pspcl's.  Just shot a bunch yesterday.  And my rifle has a short throat so I got to seat my bullets DEEP!    Accept the compressed load and pull down a little harder on the handle when you seat the bullet!  

I to was a little disappointed in the results I have achieved. The velocity with darn near a max load of IMR 4895 (compressed) was not much and the accuracy wasn't there either.  I abandoned it after this last range trip.  Fortunately I had also loaded some brass with IMR 3031 to try.  Much better velocity and accuracy is getting acceptable... especially this close to deer season!    Pickin a huntin load is kinda like goin' out lookin for wimmins... the later at night it gets, the lower your standards are...  

Anyway, the 3031 fills the case halfway up the neck and I'm not max'ed out yet!    In that regard, you sound like me - and most reloaders if they'd admit it - when it comes to compressed loads.  They just make me nervous!    But, they are not necessarilly or even possibly over pressure.

Oh, BTW, don't let anybody get you all worked up about crunched, broken, spindled or otherwise mutilated powder granules and altered burning characteristics...  That leads to talk of tumbling loaded ammunition which will make you go blind ...

[Lone Star]

  I have found that getting the maximum powder charge into a 358 Win. case is close to impossible....A medium charge of almost any powder  gets into the case neck which results in a compressed charge.  I don't think I can get enough powder into the case behind a 200 gr. or 225 gr. bullet to achieve good ballistics....

I'm not sure what powders you are using, but this is not much of a problem for most.  Lyman data shows if a load is compressed, and plenty of their maximum .358 loads are not compressed.  If you chose powders that are on the slow side then you have to use more to get the same velocity - so either accept minor compressions (nothing wrong with that), use a faster powder, or use a drop tube and pour the powder in slowly.  This latter allows you to get several more grains of most powders into any case.

Lyman #48 Max Data for .358 WCF - with no compression.
180 Speer FN - 51.0/IMR3031 = 2728 fps
200 Sierra RN - 51.5/N135 = 2659 fps
220 Speer FN - 52.0/Varget = 2514 fps
250 Hornady SP - 46.0/W748 = 2257 fps



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[Duckhunter39480]

You nailed it.  I'm tryiong to load 49.0 gr. of 3031 into the 358 case.  47.5 is severly compressed, read that it is within .1" of level full.  I'm trying to get to 49.0 gr but I don't think I can get there.

[yooper77]

How is the accuracy and pressure signs up to 47.5 grs, is 49.0 grs really necessary?

1.5 grs is a huge jump for working up safe loads, I would concentrate on accuracy and not speed.

At the very most you should be using .5 grs increments.

yooper77

[Lone Star]

Are these cases headstamped .358 WIN, or are they reformed from .308 cases?  I ask because military .308 brass is thicker and has less capacity.  I can't believe that Lyman, Hodgdon, Barnes and Speer can all get more than 46.5 grains of IMR3031 into their .358 cases, but you cannot.  Are you certain that your powder scale is properly calibrated?  Perhaps you are actually trying to put more power in than you think you are.  Not likely - but try weighing a few bullets to see how close your scale is.    Safety first!


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[Blackhawk44]

First, follow every step outlined by Lone Star, he knows whereof he speaks.  If you still need a little something extra after checking everything else, think T A C (powder).

[AtlLaw]

You nailed it.  I'm tryiong to load 49.0 gr. of 3031 into the 358 case.

Let me check my notes tomorrow.  Seems to me I worked up to 49.0 gr. of 3031 but I'm working with a bunch of rifles and am easily confused... 

[Sweetwater]

As pointed out earlier, military cases are thicker and will not accept 'as much' powder as commercial cases. Likewise, all commercial cases are not created equal and will display quite a variance in the total quantity of a given powder that can be contained. Your stick powders are much more difficult to 'pack' than are the ball powders and spherical powders. And, yes, all powder scales are not created equal. A few years ago, I read about that and prompty placed a reputable mfg's bullet on the scale. Hmm, a 100gr JSP weighed in at 96gr. Several were tried and all 'weighed' the same. I went to the Trading Post and picked up a set of checking weights. At the charge range I was using, the scale was 3gr light or about 7% - a very dangerous situation if I were trying for a 'book' max charge, as opposed to the 'accurate' charge to suit the purpose of the cartridge. Add to that the scale was not consistent at 7% light across the range of the scale and was really unpredictable. The company was long out of production, and the scale became a paper weight.
As a case in point, my 8x57 cases, as a general rule, will not contain a 'book' max charge of IMR4350, but does wonders with IMR3031(compressed) and is simply outstanding with BallC2 and no compression.
I don't load for 358's, but my 356W likes 40gr of H4198 with the 200Rem SPCL @ 2400fps. I've also loaded 45gr of IMR4064 behind the 200RemSPCL, but have not chronographed them as yet.

This is the fun of handloading for me - making it happen.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[7-30 Waters]

Have you tried any ball powders such as Ramshot TAC?  If not, give Johan Loubser at Ramshot/Accurate Powders a call.  Tell him what cartridge you are loading for and bullet weight and type.  TAC is temperature insensative and burns very clean.

Also remember the Hornady 180 SSPB was originally designed for the 357 Herrett and 35 Remington in T/C Contender pistols.  The bullet was designed for maximum starting velocity of 2400 fps. 

I shoot the Hornady 180 SSPB in my 350 Remington Magnum at 2350 fps and get excellent accuracy.  H4895 is a perfect powder for this application since you can use the Hodgden 60% rule listed under their "Youth Load Data" section on their website.  This bullet makes an excellent 200 yard deer gun and the bullet expands properly without any core/jacket serperation.

The Speer 180 FP is a little bit tougher when it comes to jacket thickness.  I wouldn't try and push the bullet over 2600 fps.

Finally, check out Handloader Magazine issue 254.  Excellent technical artricle comparing 358 Winchester to 338 Federal.  Good reloading data for the 358 Winchester for all the bullet weights you are looking to reload for.

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/hl254partial.pdf 

The article was published in the August 2008 edition.  If you don't have access I can dig it up and email you the data.

[Country Boy]

Try TAC or AA2520, I also use 748 but loads are comprssed. These powders are usedc with  .250 grn speers and Hornadys. 46 grns of 3031 will give about 2700 with 200 grn bullets.

[Graybeard]

Use a long drop tube to put your powder into the case or just vibrate the case as you put it in. What I do if the powder will physically fit inside the case period is to hold my finger over the neck mouth and then hold the case to my vibratory case cleaner for a few seconds. It will settle the powder down into the case nicely and what once was a compressed charge really no longer is. The long drop tube BP shooters use does basically the same thing but not quite as well.

If the powder charge will not physically fit the case then pour half in and do as above them pour the rest in while you have the case sitting on the tumbler. This requires the use of a funnel and you must drop your powder charge into a pan not directly into the case.

[AtlLaw]

What I do if the powder will physically fit inside the case period is to hold my finger over the neck mouth and then hold the case to my vibratory case cleaner for a few seconds.

What a neat idea!  I can't believe I never thought of it!    

[Duckhunter39480]

I've tried all this except the ball powder and the drop tube and I still get a "compressed" charge.  Graybeard's suggestion to vibrate half the charge and then pour the other half will have to be explored.  I have vibrated the full charge on my case cleaner and it definitely helps.

I have just started to work up loads and when I got to the 47.5 gr charge, it became apparent that I wasn't going to get to the max charge because of the volume of powder in the case.

I have loaded both Federal 308 Win. (re-sized to 358) and Winchester 358 Win. brass and I don't recall which presented the worst problem.  I will check this at the bench tomorrow night.

Thanks for the replies. You have been helpful.

[Graybeard]

Different cases have varying volumes. If you have cases from several makers you can weight them and see which is lighter. Those will hold more but the heavier cases will develop more pressure and more velocity with less powder so it really is a moot point as you can generally get about the same velocity from all of them. You just match powder charge to case volume.