160 vs 180 fn for 357 levergun

[crabo]

I just got a new 1894 in 357.  I tried to load some 160 grain fn in a mag case and the overall length was too long.  I think I am about to trim the case a little to see if I can load the bullet and have it cycle through the magazine.

I was wondering about the 180 gn fn and thinking about loading it in a 38 special case because of it's length.  I think the velocity will be less, but do you think the extra 20 grains would make it a better bullet on deer?  I know that the 180 fn is a good bullet in the 357 max.  I would think that you should be able to get close to pistol max velocities with a rifle barrel.

Am I on the right track?

Thanks,

Crabo

[SharonAnne]

federal loads a 180gr hollow point .357mag. winchester loads a 180gr partition. give those a try

[Chris Potts]

I leave the bullet comments to veral, but I have the same rifle and I modified the carrier so that it would feed the longer cartridges.  It is very simple to do.  I have a mold for the 180 fngc and they feed great after filling the notch in the carrier.

Chris

[Veral]

  If you load jacketed bullets in a 357 lever gun you'll be limiting velocity by a good 200 fps, while running the jacketed at more velocity then it was probably designed for (revolver use).

   Stick with lead, in the FN profile to get a good sized killing flat,  made hard enough so they don't expand and drive them fast.  The little toy gun will kill like a 30-06 out to 200 yards with the 180 gr, and probably 150 yards with the 160 gr.

   Start velocity will be about 1800 fps with the 180 gr and it retains it's speed better then the 160 gr, while being more accurate, because of it's greater bearing length.  180 gr is optimum weight, shooting stunningly flat for a revolver cartridge.   160 gr gives up in one direction while 200 bogs velocity down a bit too much.

[crabo]

Is WW with a gas check hard enough, or do I need to add some linotype or waterdrop?

Crabo

[Veral]

  I recommend straight WW alloy water dropped.  Adding lino will cause them to age soften faster than straight WW alloy.  If desired addition of no more than 2% tin, preferably using silver bearing no lead plumbing solder, will increase hardness, slightly, whichout increasing age softening rate, and make casting go smoother.

  If WW is shot air cooled it will expand to 50 caliber and will not penetrate deep enough for fast kills.

[dpe.ahoy]

What powder do you recommend for that speed?  I used to use H-110 but have switched to LilGun for the jacketed 158's.  Want to get into using your design which I can get locally.  Have 3-357 rifles now and 2 more barrels ordered for NEFs, and I agree, they hit alot harder than most people think.  DP

[Badnews Bob]

I have really good luck with IMR 4227 or H110 in all of my .357s

[Veral]

  A lightly compressed load of either H110 or 296 is what I recommend.  4227 and 2400 will both give good velocity, but they are stick powders and cause far more rapid throat erosion than ball powders, while also being more sensitive to temperature induced pressure changes.  The above load will be running real close to 40,000 psi at room temperature.  H110 and 296 both give a straight ling pressure climb all the way to 100,000 psi, as loads are increased or as temperatures increase, whereas the stick powders and all the flake powders I've used, give a very rapid pressure spike once pressures reach about 40,000 psi.

  If you can lay hands on what is sold as Data H110, you'd probably like it.  It is surplus M! Carbine powder, a ball powder that burns about 10% faster than 296, which replaced it when it came.

[dpe.ahoy]

Haven't seen any of the Data-110, will look around.  Have you had any experience with LilGun?  Will also be reaming one or 2 of the 357 mags to 357 Max.  Will this 180 work well with that cartridge and what powder would you recommend for that?  Thank you for taking your time to answer all our questions, have learned alot from reading this forum.  DP

[Veral]

  When shooting the magnum handgun cartridges in rifle barrels, velocities with the slower powders is MUCH higher than from handguns.  When using the faster powders the velocity increase from the longer barrels isn't so dramatic.

  The LBT 180 FN in 357 mag brass using H110 or 296 powder will do 1800 fps in most barrels.  So loading it in 38 brass with the same powder to touch the bullet base will give far higher velocity than would a magnum revolver with magnum brass and full loads.

  I cut the crimp groove at .35 from the nose when the fn is to be used in the lever guns.  Probably the 160 gr bullet you have has a longer nose, as many of the molds are made with a .4 nose.  So bullet weight isn't the factor that's giving you too long ammo for the lever locker, but the nose length, which was probably cut for a revolver.

  If you have the mold, or have purchased a bunch of bullets with a nose length which is too long, you can use them in your lever gun by seating them over 296 or H110 loads which will be lightly compressed with the bullet seated so it chambers smoothly.  Crimp these loads in a seperate operation from seating, by setting the crimp die about one turn too deep and backing off the bullet seater punch.  Use a somewhat careful feel to just close the case neck up against the bullets.  Too much pressure will swell the brass for a ways below the case mouth and reduce bullet grip.  Rifle bullets don't pull from recoil in a levergun, as they do in a revolver, but are driven deeper into the case in the magazine as they feed down.  The lightly compressed load will keep them where they belong, while the crimp as I described above does nothing but get the case flare to lay down so it doesn't cause chambering hassles.   Don't use this type load in a revolver or you'll tie up the cylinder as bullets pull a little with each shot.