Author Topic: The Judge (Read 2850 times)

wbarton · « **on:** May 31, 2008, 11:33:40 AM »

Any new news on The Judge? Lengths of barrel? When available in Ontario? Reloading info

Sourdough · « **Reply #1 on:** May 31, 2008, 05:21:14 PM »

There is a write-up in this months American Hunter. Showed it to the wife and told her I wanted one. I want the optional longer cylinder to shoot the 3" 410 shells. I also want the shorter barrel. The one thing the tester said about the way it shot was that the long jump for the .45LC bullets to the throat caused accuracy problems.

Skillet · « **Reply #2 on:** June 16, 2008, 09:53:27 AM »

I shot one yesterday at the range (not mine) and wasn't all that terribly impressed. Bullets were key-holing at 15 yds and groups were all over.

Don't know what the factory load was. Maybe there's a fact. load that shoots better?

I kinda' doubt the effectiveness of the .410 out of such a short barrel except at ranges measuring in inches for anything larger than snakes.

Taurus' website says:

PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
The "Taurus Judge® " is so named because of the number of judges who carry it into the courtroom for their protection. Capable of chambering both .410 2-1/2" shotshell and .45 Colt Ammunition, this amazing combo gun is ideal for short distances - where most altercations occur, or longer distances with the .45 Colt ammo. We have finely tuned the rifling to spread the shot pattern at close quarters or to guide the .45 cal. bullet to the target. Fully customized with fixed rear sights, fiber optic front sights and Taurus Ribber Grips®, the "Taurus Judge" is one decision-maker that lays down the law.

If this is true, then they waited to name it until after they saw who would buy it? Sounds kinda' shakey.

I could see some utility for it as a trail-gun in rattlesnake country, alternating .45s and shotshells, especially if the accuracy issue could be worked out. If a pistol won't do better than 12" at 15 yds with ball ammo, then I don't have much use for it, especially one this large. I think that long jump from case to forcing cone was tipping the bullets before they hit the bore proper.

It's size makes it kinda' bulky for concealed carry...

Anyone getting better groups with different factory ammo?

Skillet

ghurka · « **Reply #3 on:** June 21, 2008, 06:15:47 AM »

I've got a 4" Judge, stainless. Yep, 4". Must have been a special run or something, anyway, I'm not a big Taurus fan but when I saw the "Judge" I was intrigued. When I saw one at the local gun shop I noticed that it locked up as tight or tighter then any of my Smith's and Ruger revolvers, and that it was a 4" (couldn't make up my mind between the 3" and the 6") so I brought it home with me. I was pleasantly surprised at the accuracy with 250 grain bullets, about 5" off hand at 25 yards. Due to the long throat, I figured it would be worse. It also shot more or less to point of aim. By the way, the "Tester" is mistaken, the Judge has a standard .45 colt chamber and a long throat, not a long chamber. When you shoot .410 shells in it they fire form and come out sort of bottle necked. Speaking of .410 shells, they don't pattern worth a darn, at least in my couple of tests. I was hoping for a 50' grouse gun but it ended up being a 10' snake gun. Now I've just got to move somewhere that has poisonous snakes. I put some Hogue grips on it and bought some HKS speed loaders (the one for the 5 shot .44 spl works perfect) and I'm pretty much a happy boy. My only complaint is I hate that it has "The Judge" on the barrel. Not only is it corny but can you imagine some shyster making a big deal about that (So, were you the "judge" Mr. Smith when you shot my client?) to a jury if, god forbid, you had to use it for self defence? I don't know, maybe I'm being overly sensitive.

stuffit · « **Reply #4 on:** June 21, 2008, 07:13:41 AM »

Here's mine. A Christmas present this year!

I measured all the vital statistics. The chambers are factory specs for .45 Colt, The throats are long and measure 0.460". I was expecting dismal accuracy but was pleasantly surprised with the accuracy of some reloads with home cast SWCs of BHN 11 sized at 0.455". From a rest at 25 yds.

I expect I just lucked up on the right combination of BHN and starting size to fairly welll obturate the oversized throats. Oh yeah - the barrel groove diameter was 0.452".
I also shot some buckshot loads, loaded up in some brass .410 shells. I can post some more pics of these and comments if there's any interest.
Best regards,
stuffit

dla · « **Reply #5 on:** June 22, 2008, 06:47:07 PM »

I've never understood the fascination with that pistol. Frankly, it is the dumbest revolver I've ever seen.

But this is a free country and fortunately not everyone thinks like me

stuffit · « **Reply #6 on:** June 24, 2008, 04:09:49 AM »

We took the "Judge" out to the country yesterday on a clean-up trip:

""Judgement" was quickly dispensed for this lurking tresspasser.

Though posed here, he was coiled (and quiet) right by the steps at the edge of the porch. One load of factory #6s 2 1/2" was all that was needed. I was grateful I spotted him as the othes did not (my wife and the two rat terriers).

His skin and tasty meat will be put to good use. The Judge was a comfort to have along and a definite benefit on this trip.
Best Regards,
stuffit

warrior1 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 28, 2008, 07:07:10 AM »

stuffitt , glad you saw him first. yes sir that judge earned its' stripes yesterady. still might be one in my future.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #8 on:** July 30, 2008, 04:52:29 AM »

"I measured all the vital statistics. The chambers are factory specs for .45 Colt, The throats are long and measure 0.460". I was expecting dismal accuracy but was pleasantly surprised with the accuracy of some reloads with home cast SWCs of BHN 11 sized at 0.455". From a rest at 25 yds"

Stuffit, I think you must have measured at the chamber mouths, I think you would find that slightly to the rear those chambers must be larger. I say that because I just miked some .410 ammo I have on hand and got the following: Federal roll crimped measure .459" at the nose, Rottweil slugs measured .461", Winchester shot loads measured .462", Sellier&Bellot buckshot .465", Fiocchi shot loads and Russian steel cased slug loads both measured .466". So you see that if your chambers are really .460" only the Federal ammo would fit. I haven't been able to find any "standards" for a .410 chamber but believe it to be around .470".
I have a couple of the "Super Comanche" singleshot 45/410 pistols and find they pattern shot loads as well as a .410 long gun, fully effective on small game to 25 yards. That is with the .410 choke tube, with the .45 Colt tube in place it throws a larger spread but very uniform, giving more margin for error for snap shots on a moving snake and still effective on small game to at least 15 yards. I only tried a few .45 Colt rounds and got a 6" spread at 25 yards. Perhaps it could do better but I really wasn't interested in a singleshot .45 Colt, in fact I have removed the clunky sights to make it a "point and shoot" gun and have taken several grouse on the wing with it, a really practical .410 pistol for under two hundred bucks.

stuffit · « **Reply #9 on:** July 30, 2008, 06:42:12 AM »

coyotejoe,
Your comment is interestingly timed. Just last night I finished reloading some brass .410 shells (once fired) that I'd had to take down after their first reloading because they wouldn't allow free rotation of the cylinder after being reloaded unsized. I solved this by running them into a Lee .444 Marlin resizing die just far enough so that they would chamber fully and alllow free rotation. Apparently the tolerances are pretty close and the charges used for the first reloads may have been a bit much. I measured the throats by just slugging the chambers after seeing the shape of the once fired .410 brass cases showing a sort of "jugging" at the point where the .45 Colt portion of the chamber ended.

so it is entirely within the realms of possibility that the measurements are slightly larger in that portion of the chamber immediately ahead of the .45 Colt section. The Remington 2 1/2" #6 shot factory loads used to dispatch the rattler are, however, a very snug fit. I haven't mic'd them but I'm sure your measurements of the factory rounds you cite are correct.

The current reloads are made up with 3 .40 cast round balls loaded over a trimmed shot cup base. I won't likely get a chance to fire these until we get some cooler weather.

Thanks to everyone for the interesting responses and comments regarding this fascinating handgun.
Oh yeah, I noticed it had a cameo appearance under a pseudonym on "Flash Point" the other nightl Don't really care for the show, however. It's kind of a bummer.

stuffit

shaner · « **Reply #10 on:** August 15, 2008, 12:53:21 AM »

iam lookin at a 3in blued one at a local cant decide to spend the money or not? i like something that is accurate when i shoot it , but enjoy the thought of the 410 for fun?? oh man wish id been born rich an not so good lookin

stuffit · « **Reply #11 on:** August 15, 2008, 05:05:15 AM »

I found that my Judge shot more accurately than it's "press" and popular theory of the logistic requirements for accurate revolvers might have led one to believe. With reloads of a Keith-type SWC (454424) at a moderate MVL (850 - 900 +/- fps), mine shot purdy darn good. My small shot reloads are still in the contemplative stage but I"m thinking there's no reason I can't put the loads for the 3: shells in the 2 1/2 Mag-tec brass cases as long as I stay within specs with the powder and shot charges. Anyone else doing any reloads for the Judge? Thoughts? Ideas?

stuffit

shaner · « **Reply #12 on:** August 21, 2008, 06:09:22 AM »

sounds like a plan stuffits

Lead pot · « **Reply #13 on:** October 02, 2008, 06:40:02 PM »

I had my 3" judge now for two weeks and really put it through the works to see what it likes.
I has handled every .45 load I put through it from 185 grain SW to a 300 grain bullet and so far every one of the loads have exceeded my hopes.
Even at the 50 yard line the little 3" barrel is accurate and clean holes.
I like the grip and balance of this revolver with a decent trigger and fast solid lock up for double action.
The short barrel is hampered for a good tight pattern at ranges of 15 feet with #4 shot it leaves a lot of open space that might miss a snake.
# 9 shot loaded with 410 shot cups in a .444 marlin case and with #7 1/2 shot fared well enough to make that shot, but I would limit it to ten feet or less.
I got this little beast for prospecting the dessert and mountains, it's light and carries well and it's a fine shooter.
The .44 Colt Anaconda was a little heavy hanging on my hip

Kurt

stuffit · « **Reply #14 on:** October 04, 2008, 03:06:15 AM »

Have you tried the brass .410 cases? What weight of 7 1/2 shot did you use in those .444 Marlin cases. Any problems with cylinder rotation with them in the subsequent loadings?

stuffit

Lead pot · « **Reply #15 on:** October 04, 2008, 05:51:29 AM »

Stuffit.

I use the 1/2 oz Remington power pistons.

The .444 is almost identical to the .45 colt brass.
The rim thickness is the same.
The head diameter on the colt brass is .476
The head diameter on the .444 brass is .465
The head diameter on the AA brass is .471
Rim diameter for the colt and .444 brass is the same .512
.444 brass is 2.212 long
.410 hull crimped is 2.950 long.
The .410 AA rim diameter is .522
Rim thickness of the AA is .057

The head diameter has not changed with the .444 brass after several firings, the case web is a lot thicker than the .410 or colt brass.

stuffit · « **Reply #16 on:** October 04, 2008, 12:43:41 PM »

Lead Pot,
Thanks for the data. If the .444 brass is that much sturdier, then iits use might be advantageous. I'll surely give some of it a try. With my first .410 brass reloads, I reloaded them after just repriming, and had some stiffness and reluctance of cylinder rotation with the second loads (single and double action). A partial resizing in a Lee .444 Marlin sizing die solved this issue but maybe the .444 brass would be the better choice for the Judge. Shorter but probably still plenty of case volume. I've found the patterns spread quickly in the 6" - 2 1/2" version too, but the patterns were pretty even and well distributed with the #6 factory 2 1/2 shells used so far.

stuffit

Lead pot · « **Reply #17 on:** October 04, 2008, 02:18:52 PM »

Stuffit I made an error on the .410 case length.
It should be 2.395 not 2.950".
I would be beneficial to anneal the case mouth down to where the chamber ends.
So far I have not had a problem with gas blow back from the harder .444 case

stuffit · « **Reply #18 on:** October 05, 2008, 05:52:00 PM »

Lead pot,
Not asking for charge wt or anything but what powder do you like for working up loads in the .444 brass. I'd guess you're extrapolating and interpolating to arrive at those but could you direct me to a source of data I might use to give me some reference as to where to start on the shot loads?

stuffit

Lead pot · « **Reply #19 on:** October 06, 2008, 04:53:13 AM »

In the Lyman #44 loading manual it calls for IMR 4227 for the .410 paper hulls with 1/2 oz shot.
I don't have 4227 so I used a powder with a comparable burn rate, but I'm sorry I wont get into that because I don't know what you or anybody reading these forums knowledge is working up loads using unlisted powders and with the difference in the rifle and shot shell primer burn rates.
I'm sure you understand.
Just use the 2.5" .410 shot shells in it and you won't have any problems and they work good.
I will most likely not use the .410 or the .444 cartridges in mine, I will use shot cups in the .45 colt cases because they hold the pattern better in this short barreled revolver.
The feature that made me go with the Judge is the long cylinder that will hold the gas longer compared the shorter cylinders of a regular revolver with a short 3" barrel.