Author Topic: Do these make you nervous?  (Read 1320 times)

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Offline KABAR2

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Do these make you nervous?
« on: September 26, 2008, 10:36:53 AM »
I needed a little break so I thought I'd check some auctions on Gun Broker.....

the title caught my eye "CONFEDERATE EXPLODING SHELL"



"This excavated spherical 4 inch diameter shell is real nice. The overall condition of this shell is excellent. The iron is very smooth and is in original
unrestored condition.
This style shell was used by the Confederate artillery and is hard to find in this condition.
This example is approximately 4.54 inches in diameter. You got to buy them when you find them! This is part of my personal collection aquired in the 1960's."




Photo from another of his auctions......

No mention as to weather these are inert.......... I have collected shells on and off for 40+ years and by his description these could still be loaded![/b][/color]
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: Do these make you nervous?
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2008, 11:38:39 AM »
They don't make me nervous at all - he's not my neighbor.

Online Graybeard

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Re: Do these make you nervous?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2008, 11:48:14 AM »
Would they even be legal to own unless inert?


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Do these make you nervous?
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2008, 01:10:22 PM »
I doubt that owning them is illegal but I'll bet shipping them would be.  They MAY be inert (more accurately, non-functional) due to degradation of the black powder by moisture but I wouldn't bet on it.
GG
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Offline Terry C.

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Re: Do these make you nervous?
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2008, 02:06:53 PM »
When I saw this, I immediately thought of ...

.. this thread.


To answer the question, yes, they make me very nervous. The description should have been very specific as to the status of these projectiles.

The fact that it is not is a big red flag to me.

I wouldn't touch them.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Do these make you nervous?
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2008, 03:05:39 PM »
The first one looks like you can see into it if you use a flashlight.  The Parrott shell looks still sealed up, potential death there.

The only shell I ever gave to someone to de-activate blew up in the process.   The disarm technician wasn't hurt, he was in his house drinking beer with a friend.  He has a 200-foot extension cord leading to his remote-operated drill which has water running onto the bit at all times.  He sets it up, starts the water, then goes into the house to plug the cord in.

Offline Double D

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Re: Do these make you nervous?
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2008, 06:02:57 PM »
One of the things that amazed me when I visited Anglo Zulu and Anglo Boer war battle fields was the artifacts laying all over the place. Ammuinition,. shell fragments, horse shoes, inks wells,  buckles and other unknown bits, even the occaisional unexploded artillery shell.  They had a particularly nasty filler called Lyddite.  Lyddite is a explosive compound made using picric acid.  It was not unusal to hear about somebody finding one of these thing and accidently setting one of these things off.

Here's what Wikipedia says about it.

Modern safety precautions recommend storing picric acid wet. Dry picric acid is relatively sensitive to shock and friction, so laboratories that use it store it in bottles under a layer of water, rendering it safe. Glass or plastic bottles are required, as picric acid can easily form metal picrate salts that are even more sensitive and hazardous than the acid itself. Industrially, picric acid is especially hazardous because it is volatile and slowly sublimes even at room temperature. Over time, the buildup of picrates on exposed metal surfaces can constitute a grave hazard.

Can you image messing with one of these things that has been laying around out on the veldt for 105 years.

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Do these make you nervous?
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2008, 06:23:25 PM »
One of the things that amazed me when I visited Anglo Zulu and Anglo Boer war battle fields was the artifacts laying all over the place. Ammuinition,. shell fragments, horse shoes, inks wells,  buckles and other unknown bits, even the occaisional unexploded artillery shell.  They had a particularly nasty filler called Lyddite.  Lyddite is a explosive compound made using picric acid.  It was not unusal to hear about somebody finding one of these thing and accidently setting one of these things off.

Here's what Wikipedia says about it.

Modern safety precautions recommend storing picric acid wet. Dry picric acid is relatively sensitive to shock and friction, so laboratories that use it store it in bottles under a layer of water, rendering it safe. Glass or plastic bottles are required, as picric acid can easily form metal picrate salts that are even more sensitive and hazardous than the acid itself. Industrially, picric acid is especially hazardous because it is volatile and slowly sublimes even at room temperature. Over time, the buildup of picrates on exposed metal surfaces can constitute a grave hazard.

Can you image messing with one of these things that has been laying around out on the veldt for 105 years.

Whats interesting is when they clean out the old high school lab and find a bottle of it that has been in there for 30 + years the sad part is allot of  people don't know about this stuff.

more modern ordnance has been loaded with this, Japanese hand grenades and mortar shells had this as a filler, the inside of the iron shell was lacquered  to prevent rust and possible abrasion,
 the Chinese hand grenades from the vietnam era were also loaded with this one good drop could ruin one's day.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Do these make you nervous?
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2008, 07:15:21 PM »
Quote
Would they even be legal to own unless inert?

Any explosive device even with blackpowder has to be registered with the BATF and there's a $200. transfer fee for each piece of it.  I haven't heard of anyone going to jail lately for owning unregistered live Civil War ordnance, but it always pays to know the law.

Offline dan610324

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Re: Do these make you nervous?
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2008, 11:04:01 AM »
well well well , what to say ??
Ive just been the owner of this 2 little things .
its a pity to let the army blow them up , but I dont know what else to do with them .
I have been in touch to the army museum in stockholm and they should come back to me with ansver what to do on monday .
I also talked to an man at the place who dismantle amunition for the swedish army , he should also get back to me next week .
anyone having any ideas ??
noooo I will absolutely not try anything myself .

they are 63 mm ( 2,5 inch ) diameter
3 buttons in bottom made of brass
the 3 higher up is probably zink
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Do these make you nervous?
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2008, 11:22:45 AM »
Shells are 1880's Beulieu system studded type.  The conical fuzes on them are WWII or later and definitely never intended for those shells, you can see they dont' fit at all conformally.  Since the shells were lying around for at least 60 years before anyone could have put the modern fuzes on them, I strongly suspect they were fuzed as decorative items, but of course you can never tell for sure.  The threads on the fuze and the shell probably matched, coincidentally, so some genius screwed one into the other.  Hope that helps.

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Do these make you nervous?
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2008, 11:27:31 AM »
Dan thats an interesting round with lead riders for the rifling
it looks to be for a muzzle loader by the looks of it it seems to be a point detonated
rather than a timed fuse & looks modern(WWII ?) (Mortar fuse?)
compared to the shell your man who works on these should be able to tell,
if it is loaded it may be as simple as freeing up the screw on top removing the priming cup and soak
the insides with an oil to break up the black powder. I had a hotchkiss round
I bought  in an antique shop when I was ten for 15.00 (1970),
had it for about 15 years before I had it checked and disarmed.


It's the short stubby one in the middle black with the grey lead band never fired,
it had an impact fuse, the tip of the shell came to a point and was slotted for a large
screw driver.  unfortunately I sold it years back and have no other photos of it.

Allen <><
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline dan610324

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Re: Do these make you nervous?
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2008, 11:50:19 AM »
no its not lead , the 3 at the bottom is brass and the 3 on top is probably zink
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline p51

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Re: Do these make you nervous?
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2008, 03:52:40 PM »
I wouldn't dream of buying, transporting or storing these items as they could blow up at almost any time if the filler is still there. When it comes to dug up explosives, you often hear the famous last words, "It's inert, having been the ground so long." That should be as comforting as someone pointing a firearm at your head and hearing them say, "Don't worry, it's not loaded."  ::)
Still it doesn't stop many folks from having the "I'm an expert even though I've never even cracked a book on these" attitude, like knuckleheads who play around with 'unloaded' guns. Any real, professional handler of ordnance doesn't think like that. Attitudes like this separate the pros from the cowboys. I'd much rather be ultra careful and go home safe at night than be a knucklehead who just 'thinks' he knows better and have something I really liked having blown away from my body. That is exactly the type of flippant behavior that gets people killed. I'm glad to read so far most folks here seem to understand that it's better to err on the side of caution as someone might bring parts of you home in a bucket if you walk up to something with the above attitude!
I was an Army Ordnance officer and used to teach a basic unexploded ordnance ID class to my soldiers whenever we'd deploy to anywhere, as even in CONUS training areas you can walk into an area people forget had been used as an impact zone. The only time I ever picked up anything was a 105MM solid shot tank round (fired from an M-60 tank, I guessed in the 70s) at Yakima Firing Center. This was right after we'd driven into an impact zone that was NOT on any map. Thank God all the rounds in that field were dummy training projectiles. The only reason I picked that up was the light blue paint and markings were clearly legible and readable. Even then, I would suggest to people to not even try that (hey, I was an O-1 and stupid, what can I say?). I still have it as a doorstop today. The photo is from the wrong side, as the other side has the clear markings saying it is an inert training projectile:
NOTE: I DO NOT CONDONE ANY SUCH ACTIONS AT ALL BY ANYONE. I WAS LUCKY AS I WAS A STUPID 'BUTTER BAR' AND COULD HAVE BLOWN MYSELF TO KINGDOM COME BY SHEER ARROGANCE HAD I NOT BEEN SO LUCKY!!!   :P   I only show the photo so people won't suspect I have a potentially dangerous round in my home today, and for no other reason.
I too have initially responded to calls from people until the real EOD people could show up. Most of the time, it was a dummy grenade someone had bought from a surplus store. But you just never know. Ordnance is NOT like a fine wine. It doesn't get better with age! I heard a horror story about some people who'd dug up a large civil war round with a Borman fuse while camping. Apparently, one of the people was sitting on it, next to a campfire when the worst happened. They found his feet, and nothing else. The rest died instantly as well! One of my soldiers found a WW2 bazooka rocket once, and 'gave' it to me as I collected such things. I called EOD then too just in case as it was too rusty to tell any color paint. They took it out and blew it up to be sure. Better to miss out on a cool item for a collection than to kill yourself with one! I have yet to meet anyone I would trust to "deactivate" any kind of ordnance. There's a reason EOD blows up stuff in place most of the time. Show me anyone who confidently says he can disarm any ordnance, and I'll show you someone who'd better have his life insurance paid up!
"When all else fails, call for indirect fire on your position, AND GET THE HELL OUT!"
-Exact words of one of my 'call for fire' class instructors.
Former US Army Ordnance officer and lover of all things what go BOOM!

Offline subdjoe

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Re: Do these make you nervous?
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2008, 06:07:05 AM »
Come on, P51, quit with the soft sell and beating around the bush, tell us plain what you really think!

And, i agree in all particulars.  If you find something, mark and leave the area, call in the experts. 
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Do these make you nervous?
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2008, 10:21:55 AM »
There's a REASON the EOD folks get a little better pay than others!

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Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Do these make you nervous?
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2008, 01:57:09 PM »
Fifty years ago we were doing night "games". The following day the entire company was marching back to barrack (alot of guys). There in the roadway, was one of our white phosphorus parachute flares that never exploded. Everyone walked past it (alot of guys). The Captain was following in his jeep and had his driver stop so he could pick it up. The driver said he wanted to take it home. We never saw Captain Bursten again. It went burstin' in his hands they said.

I remember when the NYPD Bomb Squad had to dismantle alot of the old Bannerman building on Broadway years ago. There was live stuff there from the Revolution through the Spanish war.

Playing with stuff we know is bad enough at times. Why mess with success? 
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Offline p51

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Re: Do these make you nervous?
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2008, 04:01:48 PM »
Oh, when I saw the reference to "Willy Pete," I just knew the story would end badly!  :'( I went through training as a ROTC cadet and a LT at Edgewood Arsenal (former home of the chemical corps) and they seemed to always be blowing up stockpiles of chemical rounds. I was down by the bunkers once when they were unloading them to take out to blow up and one of the GS civilians handling the stuff (retired Ordnance Warrant, of course) told me the story of someone dropping a WP mortar round onto concrete while loading up a pallet. They had photos of the poor guy after they let the WP cook off (I guess in the days before they carried the right fire suppression as water won't do squat). After that, I didn't feel like eating for the rest of the day. I called in some WP indirect once at the range at Ft Lewis and that's some really scary stuff. Anyone who'd call in indirect WP inside of 'Danger Close' limits would have to have large brass ones firmly attached! I'd rather take my chances with HE or even a CBU bomblet overdrop than drop WP anywhere in my time zone!
Come on, P51, quit with the soft sell and beating around the bush, tell us plain what you really think!
Yeah, I know, I shouldn't take up poker, either. I just get annoyed with collectors who arrogantly think they can handle unexploded ordnance and most of all make snide comments about people like me know better and would much rather blow a cool item in place.
"When all else fails, call for indirect fire on your position, AND GET THE HELL OUT!"
-Exact words of one of my 'call for fire' class instructors.
Former US Army Ordnance officer and lover of all things what go BOOM!

Offline Victor3

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Re: Do these make you nervous?
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2008, 12:23:23 AM »
 I got nervous when some Olin 12 ga marine flares I had were a few years out of date.

 A guy I knew had some live shells in his collection; Civil War, WWI and WWII. He actually LOOKED for live shells to collect. He passed away (of natural causes) years ago, and the family had the stuff picked up by the police.

 As a kid, I had a friend who's Dad had some live (or so I was told) shells that appeared to be 20 and 40mm in a display case in the garage. It always seemed 'cooler' to know that the shells were 'real' and not dummy rounds.

 I wonder how many of these long-term-time-bombs are out there in private collections, or just gathering dust in the barn from when Grandpa came back from the war? I imagine there are some who like to own live stuff for some reason.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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Offline cannonmn

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Re: Do these make you nervous?
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2008, 01:42:06 AM »
I saw a nice white phosphorous hand grenade M31, with distinctive original light green paint and red lettering "SMOKE WP," as I recall the stenciling, at a show in Indianapolis, in a display case.  The owner had assumed it was inert.  I picked it up and found it was definitely still full of white phosphorous and asked him to take it off display and dispose of it properly after the show.  It had no fuze so was not an immediate danger of bursting but if the casing was breeched somehow it would start to burn.

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Do these make you nervous?
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2008, 05:58:04 AM »
Dollars to donuts, he didn't listen to you.
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: Do these make you nervous?
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2008, 12:21:48 PM »
He did take it off display, I know that much, if he hadn't I would have gotten the proper authorities (the show management would hopefully have been sufficient) to make it happen.  I have no idea what he did with it later, that was beyond my control.