Smith & Wesson Model 15 trigger problem

[Cortman]

Anyone knowledgbale on S&W model 15? I shoot the pistol at the range last week, functioned perfectly. When I got home to clean it the trigger will not latch (detent) to cocked posotion on SA mode? The pistol still functions DA. I am a machinist and novice gunsmith, though not any expert on S&W pistols. I removed the side cover to examine the hammer/trigger mechanism expecting to find something obviously broken. No broken parts or obvious damage, though its definatly had some wear in the hammer pivot and other parts. Can anyone suggest any literature that talks about the S&W trigger or gun repairs, and does anyone know about this problem or suggest any course of action? Thanks; Randy
randycort@msn.com

[Autorim]

I recommend blasting it with cleaner/solvent with the grips off and blowing out with the air compressor. It will probably function just fine unless someone has screwed with it.

[Siskiyou]

What is the history of this Model 15?

Have you owned it since it was new?

Did you purchase the firearm used?

Did the firearm function in the single action mode repeatedly at the range?

If the firearm was purchased used, is it a former L.E. firearm?

Many departments modified their SA/Double action revolvers to function only in the Double Action Mode.

Some of those departments required a personnel firearm carried by an officer to be modified to double action only.

If the firearm was bought used the history is unknown.  A lot of backyard mechanics have tinkered with sixgun actions over the years resulting in problem firearms.

There have been periods in S&W history when unreliable firearms left the factory.  I purchased a new “K” frame and it suffered from push-off out of the box.  Push-off is when you can push the hammer off when it is in single action mode with thumb pressure.

A number of departments had armors that went over all newly purchased handguns, before the weapon was issued.

In the case of my problem S&W I had it repaired by a certified gunsmith who provided a signed letter for the agency that the firearm was safe. 

I had a Colt 357 Magnum that function fine.  I fired it a great deal and it came time for certification it was recommend that a couple of parts be replaced to insure reliability.  Thousands of rounds had been fired in the weapon and it was showing some wear.  The parts were replaced to insure that it would function in a critical situation.

If the firearm does not function after a good cleaning as suggested I would take it to a gunsmith who knows S&W revolvers.

[Cortman]

Thanks for taking the time Siskiyou; I bought the gun used, I don't know much about its history. It is a bit loose. I shot it in SA mode the day before I was cleaning it, all was fine then, I was comenting to my boy  of what a nice trigger pull the S&W's usually have. The side plate screws have had drivers in them for sure. Is there any repair literature that would aid in working on the trigger mechanism, manuals, etc?
I live in Southern Oregon, your name sounds like you might be from around this area. Can you recommend and good S&W pistolsmiths? Thanks again; randy

[Mohawk]

  The only modifications any LE would do to make it DA only would be to to cut off the hammer spur, which obviously still exists, so that would not be it since it could still be cocked for SA use. No internal lockwork was changed..IE: NYPD in '60's and '70's with the model 64. And, most likely, it would be so marked. Probably just some crud in the gears from a range session. Clean her up and give her a test. But as stated push off can be an issue, but not likely. Anywho, any gunsmith worth his title can work on a Smith revolver, pretty much a universal covenant.

[gunblade]

Does it have a trigger stop installed?  On some older S&W 15s there is a small piece of metal behind the trigger that fits into a slot in the frame...it is held in place by a small screw.  It is a factory installed part.  I've seen a number of these work their way loose and block the trigger when I was serving as a weapons instructor in the USAF...the S&W 15 used to be our standard issue sidearm before the Beretta M9.  We always removed and discarded the trigger stop whenever we encountered one on our training and duty guns. 

[Siskiyou]

Back in the late 1960’s a friend went to work for L.A.P.D and the Model 15 was the issue carry gun.  We went out plinking and I noticed he was firing only double action and he was very good at it.  He told me that L.A.P.D.  and some other departments had modified the Model 15 for double use only.  The reason is that they had some accidental shooting when officers pointed a cocked firearm at a suspect and under stress accidentally discharged the weapon. http://gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/Guns+of+the+LAPD?packedargs=pagenum%3D3


I had a department owned model 36 for high concealment with a bobbed hammer.  There was a lot of concern regarding light hammer fall with a revolver with a bobbed hammer.  I never experience any miss fires.  In over thirty-years I do not recall a six-gun in a Sam Brown with a bobbed hammer.


Wyatt has done a lot of rifle work for my brother and he has been satisfied. http://www.wyattsoutdoor.com/


The gunsmith I used was a retired CHP armor and built competition guns by the name of Davis.  His son might still be in business but have not heard of him in a long time.  I will do some checking, he repaired a shotgun for me in 1994.

There are a fair number of gunsmiths listed in Southern Oregon.

As L.A.P.D. went so did a lot of other departments.  The Model 15 was standard with Los Angeles County Sheriffs Department; many cities in the Los Angeles basin went whatever direction L.A.P.D. went.  When I was trained it was double action only.  Our Model 19, 66, and 696 were not modified. 

This was back in the days when most departments traded their duty guns in.  Many second hand model 15 S&W started in L.E.

[gunblade]

I've bobbed a few hammers on S&Ws when converting them to DAO, but I also remove the single action cocking notch from the hammer...this will render the gun a true DAO as there is no way for the hammer to remian cocked if it is pulled back in the SA mode...even a bobbed hammer can be pulled back and cocked once it gets started by pulling the trigger, unless the SA cocking notch is also filed off of the hammer.  Since the original poster said he had fired the gun in the SA mode before he cleaned it, I still suspect a trigger stop is installed in the gun and has become dislodged preventing the trigger from coming to it's fully rearward position and setting up properly on the hammer for SA firing.  The double action pull won't be affected by this since there is a DA sear installed in the hammer face that slips off the trigger nose before the trigger nose can reach the SA cocking notch.   

[Siskiyou]

Clearly the gun has not been neutered. 

It was an option to explorer because many of the Model 15 S&W from different departments were modified to DA.  This was during the period the trade-in market was hot.

This is at the point if it was my firearm I would have a S&W shop take a look at it.  There are a lot of trained S&W mechanics out there.  I use the word mechanic instead of gunsmith.  The agency I worked for sent a number of officers to the S&W School to do routine repairs.  These mechanics would not fill the role of a highly trained gunsmith.  As the era of six shooters passed they received training in the different autoloaders issued.  Normally the school did not last more than two or three days.

When we transitioned to autoloaders I was offered the opportunity to attended the school.  I passed, when there is a questionable shooting many issues are brought up by the shooter.  One of them could be a botched repair job.   When hiring was based on gender and race I wanted nothing to do with the maintenance of their firearms.

A range master was sue after a Washington D.C. female officer had an accidental discharge of her weapon in her apartment.  Her claim was that she was not taught how to de-cock her duty weapon.  Her training had focused on double action fire.  Another reason a department might want to go to a double action only revolver or autoloader.

I did a little research for Davis or his son in Northern California and did not find them in my limited resources.  I also checked for another S&W gunsmith who worked on a lot of police revolvers in the 1980-1990 period before the transition to autoloaders.   It appears he retired or moved on.

You might check your local library for books on S&W.

OTI in Klamath Falls produced trained gunsmiths at one time. I believe there is a Firearm Repair Center listed in the Portland area.

[Mohawk]

 You gotta love the irony. The '60's was the same era when many large departments were still qualifying in SA only while some departments had DA only guns. Go figure. Every qualification I've had with revolvers had to be DA fire due to the stopwatch that you were racing.

[/quote]

[Hank08]

Cortman, While pulling the hammer back try pushing the trigger forward at the same time, if the hammer cocks then you would know your trigger return spring  needs to be replaced.
Many shooters cut these short to lighten the trigger pull.  That spring is in the little rectangular box behind the trigger.  Also look where the trigger and the hammer meet.  There's just a hairline notch on the hammer where the trigger catches, this could be broken and would require a new hammer.

Siskiyou, Bill Davis has retired but i think his business is still going.
Bill Davis Service Center
7221 Florin Mall Dr.
Sacramento, Ca. 95823
916-393-4867

used to shoot PPC with Bill, way back when...
H08

[gunblade]

Good point...the SA notch on the hammer could be broken or worn down enough to not set up properly, or the trigger nose is defective somehow.  Hard to be sure without seeing the gun.  I went to the S&W armorer's school in about '86 I believe it was...worked on revolvers and very early third generation autos...still have the maintenance manuals they gave us in the class.   I'm still betting on the trigger stop.   

[Siskiyou]

Hank08:

Thanks for the updated address for the Bill Davis Service Center.  Davis built very good PPC pistols and was written up in a number of gun rags.  It was always a pleasure to stop by and look at what he had built, and what he had for sale.  It was handy to pull off I-5/1-80 and go over to his shop off Harbor.  We would pull in there when we were making a North-South trip.  His shop was my GoTo place for gun repair.  My wife would set in the car knitting on our stops.  I had to look up his son off highway 50 after the Harbor location closed.  I think that is when Bill Sr. retired.  As I recall he work on some duty shotguns for us, and for sure he repair my Ithaca M37.  That shotgun has saved me many a day from swarms of Mt. Quail, and Blue grouse.