Floating the barrel on a Weatherby Vanguard 30-06 sporter barrel yes or no

[p5200]

Hi, I just got this Tan with black spider web a few days ago and haven't even shot it yet. Has anyone free floated one of these with accuracy gains? I don't like the way the barrel fits touching down both sides with no, clearence at all. The first three shots might be fine don't know yet but, I would think once the barrel begins to heat, this could produce crap for accuracy based on the research I've done on rifles and bedding in general. I was advised on another forum to free float the barrel so it's no longer touching the sides or bottom and to also, bed the rear portion of the recoil lug. Any thoughts, opinions, or other Ideas of what I could do to ensure the greatest accuracy results? I plan to replace the trigger with a Rifle Basix for no, I have just adjusted it the best I could get it to be safe! Thanks for any advice!   

[safetysheriff]

hello,

the only thing i'd work on right out of the box is the trigger pull weight.   i'd shoot the rifle, maybe going through 100 rounds, before even thinking about free-floating the barrel.   i'd re-crown it, if needed, before free-floating it.    (if needed.......). 

i just don't believe that free-floating is the end-all to everybody's accuracy quest. and many times Remington has proved, with pressure bedding, that free-floating isn't worth it.   if the barrel has been properly stress relieved then it may not change point of impact when warming up.   at least, it won't change anywhere near what you sometimes read about rifles that probably weren't stress relieved properly.

take care,

ss' 

[p5200]

Thanks for the advice! I will hold off for a while but will replace the trigger when I get the funds I have adjusted it for right now. as far as the crown, I took my CZ452 Varmint to the smith and had him put an 11 degree target crown on it with a Lathe and it shot tighter groups, and was much more consistent and not many fliers than the factory crown and for $40.00, that might be a good option also. Once Again Thanks!   

[Catfish]

If it don`t shoot don`t just float it, and don`t worry about what it will do when the barrels get hot unless your going PD hunting with it. Sand the frount presure point down a few .001`s at a time, just a couple of .001`s took my son-in-laws from 3 in groups to under 3/4 of an in.

[Graybeard]

My vote is no. I am a firm believer in a pressure point ala Remington 700s on sporter weight barrels versus true free floating. I'll bed the first inch or two from the action forward and float the rest with a pressure pad near the tip of fore end.

[Bart Solo]

I think the Bell and Carlson stock is supposed to fit that way. The key to accuracy is consistency.  I would suggest you shoot the rifle before you decide it isn't accurate.  I had the same concern but have discovered that the pressure is consistent on both sides, and I have also discovered that mine shoots pretty well.  Just remember to follow the directions in the back of the booklet that accompanied the rifle when you put the action back into the stock.  It suggests that you put the screws in part way, and then pull back on the barrel to firmly position it in the stock.  Then you tighten it down.  If memory serves you tighten the front screw first and then the back screw.  That should put the action and barrel back in the stock exactly as it was before you took it out.   I will check the manual when I get home to make sure the screw tightening order is correct. But I know it says tighten one down all the way before tightening the second. The manual doesn't suggest any particular torque, just that the screws are to be well tightened. 

I am a believer that when an owners manual tells you to do something in a very particular way there is probably a reason.  I am not sure folks I read complaining about accuracy have followed the directions in the owners manual. 

[Bugflipper]

 I do exactly as GB said. One other thing I always use a torque wrench and take the stock mounting screws to the same weight each time. Also I only use synthetic, so washers go in between the screw and stock.

[PeterCartwright]

I have a Howa 1500 in .338 WM which I mated to a Boyd's JRS laminated stock.  I bedded the action and chamber area, while leaving the rest of the barrel free floated.  The rifle simply didn't do well.  Finally after some trial and tribulation I bedded the whole thing snug and the gun settled down.  (I also discovered that handloads which approached max loadings grouped much, much better, but that's another story).

I suspect that each rifle is a law unto itself so far as bedding needs are concerned.  For my purposes, if a hunting rifle can do well for three shots (or even two, for that matter), I'm a happy camper.  I'm especially concerned about having the first shot from a cold barrel printing to point of aim.

PC

[Fat NDN]

Weatherby Vanguard barrels were never Seasoned. I floated my barrel and it shot worse. I bedded the action and it did not help.
Was told by an gunsmith with 30 yrs. experience that these barrels are meant to touch all the way out in order to compinsate for the cheap un-seasoned barrel.  weatherby guarantees 1 1/2" group with a cold barrel and it is true. But when the barrel heats up it will move.
I could put 3 shots in a quarted at 100 yds, then it would be all over the target.  But then that 1st cold shot is what counts, when hunting. But if you want a bench target gun try a Savage or Remington.

[Bart Solo]

What do you mean by "seasoned?" 

[p5200]

What do you mean by "seasoned?" 

That's what I was wondering 

[sachel.45]

my vanguards must have seasoned barrels (whatever that means) cause ive never had a problem with my groups moving my dad hasent either granted im not burning through 100's of rounds at a time but still my barrels get preety warm

[Bart Solo]

Your guess as to what he means is as good as mine. Maybe he is talking about lapping the barrel.  That is done on a lot of expensive rifles, but not on entry level sporters like the Vanguard.  Lapping involves "polishing" out the fine defects that occur in every barrel.  You can hire a gunsmith to lap your barrel.  I bet it does more to improve your accuracy than floating. There is a technique called fire lapping where you fire special bullets in a particular sequence during the "break in" period.  Fire lapping is supposed to increase accuracy dramatically.  I am told it is much cheaper than hiring a gunsmith,  but you do have to be a reloader.  The various abrasives in the bullets do reduce barrel life by a couple of hundred shots.  

Maybe he is just talking about slowly breaking in a new barrel by firing a few shots and then cleaning the barrel very carefully and firing a few more shots.  I am generally a believer in breaking a barrel in slowly, but I have read so many different "sure fire" break in techniques that have to be followed religiously, it is hard not to laugh.  The idea is to never let the barrel become excessively hot (usually that means 3 shot groups) and to clean after 5 or 6 rounds.  I have fired my new rifle 7 rounds during each of my trips to the range.  Some would say that I have endangered my barrel by shooting too many times between cleanings.  I think those guys are a little anal.  The key is that I have never shot more than three or four times at any time and have never let the barrel get hot.   I have very carefully and completely cleaned the barrel after each session.  After 20 to 50 rounds your barrel is said to be broken in.    

I am curious about what he means.  

[p5200]

Yeah I know my CZ .22 rifles come pre-lapped from the factory but I'm sure the Vanguards don't maybe that's what he is talking about but I don't understand what that would have to do with whether or not the barrel is floated as it should break in (season) ? I am thinking about putting one of these deluxe kits in my stock price seems right.  http://www.scorehi.com/main.htm   

[billy]

On my hows 1500 i but it in a laminated stock after about 50 rounds of 1 and 1/2 to 3 inch groups and floated the barrel now it will shoot three shots in a inch sq. at 100 yards.But i know each rifle is differant and a lot of times a pressure point is needed at the tip of the stock.

[Fat NDN]

By seasoned, I was told that the metal was denser in some parts of the barrel than others. So when the barrel heats up. temps. are different making the barrel move from more dense to less dense creating movement in the barrel. So Weatherby beds the barrel, trying to get the best of both a cheap barrel and accuracy. Works great most of the time, but not always. This is only on the Vanguards and might be only
on the older rifles. That has been my experience anyway.

[Bart Solo]

That sounds like pretty sophisticated metallurgy.  I didn't know manufacturers are able to make some parts of a barrel "denser" than others. To make it work they would have to be very consistent in determining which parts are going to be denser than others. Like I said, really sophisticated metallurgy. 

[p5200]

   I think I'm starting to move from less dense to more dense now   

[safetysheriff]

www.tcarms.com/customerService/faq.php  indicates that 'seasoning' a rifle barrel is similar to seasoning a cast iron skillet.   read question #6 about their bore butter kind of product.

i think that i get a 'seasoned' bore by coating the barrel, and other parts, with a molybdenum-disulfide lube (auto front-end grease with 'EP' quality, containing 'moly').   i let it sit a couple weeks, wipe it all around/move it all around in the bore, and on the rest of the metal.   i do this before shooting the rifle for the first time.   the 'moly', i am told, etches its way into the metal, like butter or crisco does with a cast iron skillet.

in other words: the density of the metal has nothing to do with it.   and in fact the metallurgy is most affected by heat-treating: annealing and then hardening of the barrel and action.   Remington reputedly has done four annealing treatments on their barrels to remove the hard spots from the hammer-forging process.   once the barrel is 'homogenized' to a softened state by that annealing it can then be hardened to a proper BNH-rating for use in a firearm.    (it's similar to the annealing we did in the Ford Motor Co' foundry in greater Cleveland, Ohio with the exhaust manifolds and so on.   by annealing the parts they do not expand/stretch, nor do they crack when an engine is fired up for the first time -with all that heat expanding the manifold at different rates in different areas) 

if you do a search of ''rifling methods'' you may find some of the things i've seen before that are very interesting re: the various rifling methods and their postive/negative costs and attributes.

take care,

ss'   

[sachel.45]

bore butter is for muzzleloaders to reduce fouling between shots its not for centerfires

[mjbgalt]

weatherby vanguard barrels are made by krieger...not cheap barrels.

-Matt

[Fat NDN]

weatherby vanguard barrels are made by krieger...not cheap barrels.

-Matt

Mine was made by HOWA, as was my action.

[safetysheriff]

bore butter is for muzzleloaders to reduce fouling between shots its not for centerfires

Amen.    That's why I use 'moly' instead.    Nonetheless, it does illustrate one meaning of 'seasoned' as regards our hobby.   Some of the other definitions out there are even further from the truth.

ss'   

[mjbgalt]

no, the barrels are made by krieger, and shipped to howa, which creates the action and screws on the krieger barrel.

-Matt