Redistrubution of Wealth to Super Rich = SLAVERY

[lrs]

Has this gone crazy or what?  Another bail out in the works?
This is so out of control. 
What is it with these people?
Rob from the middle class, and redistribute to the super wealthy?

I've got news.
bo ain't president.  This is happening under Bush.  And it is going on with his full support.

This is getting to the point of slavery.

[45-70.gov]

i  had a thread  a few  weeks  ago  about  the way  i see  it

it is  the  billionares using the peasents  to  rob the millionares


http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,154769.0.html

[Elijah Gunn]

I now believe the money is fiat,and worthless. It only has value because enough people still believe it does. When these bailouts happen they just flick the switch on the old money makin machine and do what they want.

[magooch]

Yeah, so what's your plan to fix the problem?  I'm for slavery as long as I'm an owner.

[Troyboy]

same story new chapter the rich get richer and the middle class gets poorer. The truly wealthy do not pay taxes and that is a fact. the middle class will bear the brunt until there are only rich and poor. thats the plan no matter what liar is in office as i have said all politicians are corrupt



                                             What say you america

[jimster]

I don't agree that the wealthy pay no taxes, they pay most of the taxes actually,  you can look it up, the IRS has the scoop, and has not been anything but honest when giving out these numbers.  Yes...of course we all pay way too much taxes compared to what we make,  nobody will argue that, so I would guess you should have no problem with the fact if you make multi millions,  your paying millions.  Can you try to tie a bunch of it up in non taxable accounts and properties and such...you bet you can, and you darn well better, because uncle sam will get it all if they can.  We also have the option to put our money in non taxable places if we want as "middle class"...and we do...just not millions, we do it with what we can.  And you darn well better.  Pitting the wealthy people against the middle class (whatever that is, who knows, the government will tell you) and both those classes against the "poor"...is a good plan, and anyone that falls into that trap is fooling themselves and being taken in by pure blather.  You better hope there are people with lots of money out there, because if anyone is going to invest in a business, it will be them, not your government, who can't invest in anything or make even one job in the private sector.  You better hope when they decide to invest their money they make back a good profit too, or nobody will invest in anything, they will take their money and go sit and drink fancy drinks somewhere and say screw it.  You start messing with the wealthy people's money, they will tie it all up, and you won't see it come out until someone like Reagan cuts the tax on it....and it's not likely you'll see someone like that again until these liberal socialist types have some horrible times and finally realize....you ain't workin for no poor people or businesses that are in the red.  The notion that the wealthy don't pay taxes is down right uninformed and false, they pay billions...and the fact you would like them to pay billions more is too bad...they won't do it.  Neither would I!  This country was pretty much formed on trying to get away from taxes, and for good reason.  Taxes cause more spending, spending causes more taxes.

We are all in the same water no matter what we all make...you bring the tide down,  little boats will drop down with the big boats.  Far as I'm concerned,  Senator Obama has divided the people with the help of the Democrats in Congress (and some Republicans too) which is the opposite of what he said he was going to do.  He divided the people up according to their class and wealth...and HE will decide who is middle class....not you.

[lrs]

I agree Jim.  The spirit of this thread was directed towards the super rich.  People who are beneficiaries, or standing in line, for the bailout money that was to be used for the morgtgage crisis.  The small # of people who are so wealthy, they are in a way, above society.   Folks like the cfr, bilderbergs, skull and bones, and whatever else you can throw in.

[jimster]

Tm7, I'm only going by what the IRS has already reported,  and yes, I would agree if putting your money offshore would help keeping the government from taking it from you, good idea.  Like I said, we ll pay too much no matter how much we make, and you can agree with the government grabbing what they can if you want, but it won't work, it never has.  And you can't convince me our government is going to "redistribute" this money where it would do some good anyways, even if I agreed they need to steal it somehow, there is nothing that says this money will go anywhere good, it will be funneled off and used in a thousand ways and you won't even know how it's used, but you can be sure a whole lot of it will go to where it won't do the "people" any good at all.  There lies the flaw of the whole "spread the wealth" theory.  Government is getting so many billions from the people now they can't even account for a lot of it, it just gets lost.  There must be a massive amount of government jobs in offices just to play "pass the paper" now as it is...I guess we are paying billions in government employee salaries just to do book work....catch 22 again.  As far as the only two choices you give...hang your heads and go along with the program quietly, or man your guns...I would think a good does of activism at all levels can be done before this happens, and I would also say there must have been a healthy dose of activism to get Congress to lower taxes so much at one time as we did see....once....granted, it's not many times we actually see what they confiscate from us go backwards, but it has happened, and it can happen again if people are active at all levels in many states.  I think if things get bad enough, we will see a healthy dose of this again, it's a cycle, and the people go from dumb to smart real fast when everyone gets poorer, and at some point, they will want the government to get out of the way again.  How anyone could trust that the government would "redistribute" money anyplace good is beyond me,  they have never proved themselves as being careful with it....why in the world would you want them to have more power when they have been caught with their hands in the cookie jar so many times, and almost everything they have touched has turned to crap?

"ain't that kinda dumb after what happened last time?" ....from the movie Pale Rider....LOL!!!!....ok...let's keep it light hearted if we can, we have different opinions, but I'm I'm still on the same piece of ground with you. 

[wareagleguy]

Jimster,
Are you in top 5 percent?  Are you one of those paying all those taxes?

[jimster]

I doubt if what I pay even registers on the scale, if you think about the billions they get....but I can tell you what I have taken out of my checks, State and Fed taxes added up, is enough to make a house payment each month,  and that does not include property taxes, sales tax, and a bunch of others.  I can tell you that if you make around 50k to 60K per year,  you'll have approx 900 per month confiscated off the top with all taxes...and it hurts pretty good.  So what I am saying is we all pay too much.  State has their hand in one pocket, Fed in the other, and now our governor here is asking the feds to cough up money for the State of Michigan, which means she just stuck her other hand in another pocket, cause the feds get their money from me too.  Not into the class war thing guys, I don't think one group of people should be any different.  I don't think there is an argument on the wealthy people paying a lot of cash already.  The question is when do the people get the percentage they think is fair...and when does it stop?   When they reach 70 cents of every dollar a wealthy person makes do they say, OK, that's enough now?  When a business is just teetering on the edge of being in the red....do they say...OK...that's enough now?  I don't think it stops all that easy.  Michigan has a lot of vacant buildings here, strip malls empty, you can go all over the State and see empty buildings.  They must have reached a point between the State and the Feds taking their cut, where it just didn't work out anymore, and left.  Next laws they pass...will they force them to stay and operate?  I guess that is the only step left after a while eh?  Yes, I think there has to be some controls in place, no problem, but you won't make the markets do anythying they don't want to, and if you force something, it won't work.  At least that's what I think. 

If you make any money, the government shoves you in the creek once a year with it in your pockets, and all that don't get wet you can keep.  ~Will Rogers

[wareagleguy]

The trickle down economy never died.  The current economy is the result of it.  Bush has from day one worked to lower taxes on the top 5 percent.  That is the base of the trickle down economy.  The GOP has been turned into an elite empire looking out for the top 5 percent, not you or me.  This is why I left.

[Questor]

Hey, man! We're all screwed multiple times in this charade. I don't particularly like paying for my deadbeat neighbor's mortgage either because to stupid mofo took on a debt he couldn't honor. I hope you feel the same way, too. This bailout BS for the auto makers is just a boondoggle for channelling money to the unions. The money is just to keep the companies afloat for a while because they are collapsing from the cost of unionization. It's all positively infuriating.

[jimster]

"The current economy is the result of it.  Bush has from day one worked to lower taxes on the top 5 percent."   Wow!  

So who wants to answer my question?  How much were they paying before their taxes were lowered,  and how much would you like to raise them?  
I was asking at what point do you stop raising them....??   Nobody wants to answer this?  But I notice a couple of you think Bush lowered taxes on the rich all by himself (we don't say how much they pay already, how nice to leave that out) no Dems/Reps in Congress involved...??  

Not a big Bush fan here gents...pretty liberal guy in most area's for me...but I certainly am not going to hate him so bad I'm totally blind on WHO (535 people in congress with DEMS in control) is really in charge.
Works better for me to dislike all of them, at least I can see more clearly that way.    

So when you finally can put a number on how much of the rich guys dollar you want, let me know, it would be interesting to hear a number come from you.  Also...maybe you could fill me in on just how our government will force the wealthy to invest in businesses and jobs....now this will be interesting to hear...I would bet your not going to force them into anything at all....any bets gents?  I think not!  Cause like...Michigan pretty much emptied right out with your plan already in motion here!  So we can now say, how is that working so far?  You want a good idea of what the U.S. will be like with your grabing people money....look at Michigan....it's coming your way.

A while back I was almost thinking of going into business myself with another guy,  investing some, borrowing a bunch.(indoor shooting range!)...I decided it's not a good time to do that (in THIS State anyway)....should they FORCE me too anyways even though I could not afford all the taxes and regulations?  You will never see the day where our government can control the markets through force and taxes and redistribution....and somehow it gets in YOUR pockets....ain't happenin....never has, never will,  and even if we agreed with that notion...your government is not trustworthy enough to put it in YOUR pockets.  People will find out soon enough, so will you....Senator Obama is not going to spread the wealth either...1, because he can't....2...because he does not really believe in that either.  Otherwise I'm sure he would have spread around some of that 150 million he picked up in 4 weeks time while running for president...truth is..he needed that money for something kind of important.  So he kept it....and you could say he used it wisely.  It did not get to anyone who really needed it....and it never will.  




  

[lrs]

I think you have a pretty good handle on it Jim. 

[jimster]

I totally agree with a lot of what your saying there TM7. 
It's just that the answer to this is what? 

I figure there are only two ways to gain wealth.  Convince every person to be more productive,  or take the wealth from people against their will, which won't work so well, or at all, it never has.

So maybe there is a way to get things in order other than government convincing people that the wealthy are their enemy and we need to take what they got, which is basically the message I hear out there.
And maybe we can get government to get their hands out of our pockets at the same time, because in order for me to be more productive, I have to have a second way to make even more money (see above, I'm paying enough taxes to make a house payment)  to make up for what is confiscated from me.
Which means I'm not giving up on being more productive,  I am willing to work harder.  If I wasn't so old I'd do three jobs, but those days are gone, I need more sleep. 

I just have a problem thinking government intervention has chance in heck of working at all, as a matter of fact, it's government intervention that causes most problems in the first place. 
Seems to be they get their fingers in there, things foul up, so they tell us they need to stick their whole hand in there to fix it.  I see this all as a no win situation. 
Can you imagine how foolish it will be to bail out the car companies now...when nobody is going to buy one?  How long do you think that will last...you might as well burn the money you give them. 
I do not believe you can make the markets do anything....nobody is going to convince me to buy a car just because we propped up GM for another year....GM has to get themselves out of this mess...

[Questor]

Jimster:

A good case study is the American pharmaceutical industry. Most of the consumption is still here, but the research has largely been driven abroad. Even places like Scotland are becoming major countries for drug research. Many of the scientists doing the research are Americans who have relocated. America's regulatory environment is killing it.

[Heather]

Jimster:

A good case study is the American pharmaceutical industry. Most of the consumption is still here, but the research has largely been driven abroad. Even places like Scotland are becoming major countries for drug research. Many of the scientists doing the research are Americans who have relocated. America's regulatory environment is killing it.

And we wonder why the price of prescription meds is so high?

Heather

[Questor]

Heather:

The prices vary depending on the economies of the countries in which the drugs are sold. For example, Canadians are generally less prosperous than Americans, so the prices are lower in Canada for the same drug.

Cost is not the major problem now (believe it or not). The big problem is that regulation is stifling innovation, and driving investors away from the pharmaceutical business. This is particularly becoming a problem for maintenance drugs for the elderly, like diabetes treatments. It's just too risky to develop some new drugs. The reality is that an investor may prefer something low risk and lucrative, like investing in video game companies, rather than expose their dollars to the risks consequent to huge lawsuits. The Vioxx case is particularly interesting in that some problems were found with the drug, and it was essentially litigated off the market. A more sensible remedy would likely have been to limit its use to hospitals only.

[Bigeasy]

Paulson was on CNN yesterday.  He described how the stock market worked..

Once upon a time in a place overrun with monkeys, a man appeared and
Announced to the villagers that he would buy monkeys for $10 each.

The villagers, seeing that there were many monkeys around, went out to the
Forest, and started catching them. The man bought thousands at $10 and as
Supply started to diminish, they became harder to catch, so the villagers
Stopped their effort.

The man then announced that he would now pay $20 for each one. This
renewed The efforts of the villagers and they started catching monkeys
again. But Soon the supply diminished even further and they were ever
harder to catch, So people started going back to their farms and forgot
about monkey Catching. The man increased his price to $25 each and the
supply of monkeys Became so sparse that it was an effort to even see a
monkey, much less catch One.

The man now announced that he would buy monkeys for $50! However, since he
Had to go to the city on some business, his assistant would now buy on his
Behalf.

While the man was away the assistant told the villagers. 'Look at all
these Monkeys in the big cage that the man has bought. I will sell them to
you at $35 each and when the man returns from the city, you can sell them
to him For $50 each.'

The villagers rounded up all their savings and bought all the monkeys.
They Never saw the man nor his assistant again and once again there were
monkeys
Everywhere.

Now you have a better understanding of how the stock market works.