Author Topic: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29  (Read 2318 times)

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Offline mattt

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Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« on: July 27, 2008, 09:08:24 AM »
 bought some of this from cabelas for my 629 44mag and they state in the catalog ok for any smith wesso made after 1989. Yesterday looked at buffalo bore site and it says only certain ruger models and dan wesson models with long enough chambers. This ammo is not loaded above sammi standards so should it be safe to shoot out of my 629 ? I dont want to damage the gun or myself. I own a SW 500 pc that I shoot buffalo bore out of and like the ammo so I thought I would try some hot loads for the 44.

Offline MePlat

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2008, 09:41:59 AM »
I may be old fashioned but when ever I want to know something important I generally go the the horses mouth.
On BB's website there is a link that says e-mail Buffalo bore.  I believe I would use that instead of relying on others that may or may not know.
Some on here may believe they know when they don't and maybe vice versa.
Course if it is too long one don't have to worry and really what does +P+ really mean if the lenght  and weight is the only difference since 36000 psi is 36000 psi etc..   
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Offline mattt

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2008, 09:59:18 AM »
Since I cant return the ammo to cabelas if length is the only issue then taking some  lead off would fix that .I  will try to talk to buffalo bore on monday thanks

Offline mattt

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2008, 02:31:45 PM »
Called cabelas and after to 3 poeple the last one pulled up buffalo bores web site saw where they say not for my gun and how the add in cabelas does not say this.They agreed to give me a refund and let me keep the ammo since it cant be returned

Offline Mikey

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2008, 12:46:57 AM »
Wait a minute - this is something I don't quite understand.  Buffalo Bore may load their bullets out to maximum length (maybe they need to do that with long heavy slugs) and maybe those loads will only chamber in some revolvers (S&W chambers/cylinders are longer than some Rugers and some Dan Wessons) and I do not understand the caveat about S&Ws made after 1989, but if ammo is loaded to SAAMI specs then it is safe to shoot in the gun - that's why SAAMI tests ammo.  The factories set the pressure limits for use of their firearms and SAAMI assures that ammunition made for those firearms is within their specifications.  Hence, it should be safe to use in the 629. 

I agree with MePlat that contacting Buffalo Bore directly should help but if their ammo is within SAAMI specs I do not understand what the worry or concern is.  I like cabelas but I wouldn't go on the word of one of their salespeople, especially if they had to get into the same website you need to access for information - check it out yourself. 

+P+ Magnum ammo - bs.  Magnum ammo is +P by its  'magnum' designation.  Whatever the pressure limits are for individual magnum calibers, 37-38k, 39-42k, the +P+ designation belongs only to the lesser powered cartridges that are then loaded to higher pressures.  Magnum ammo is +P or +P+. 

Man, all this so oily inna mornin'.   

Offline Hook686

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2008, 02:59:22 PM »
Quote
   Printed Order Form
   

Item 4D:  340 gr. LBT-LFN GC . (1478 fps / M.E. 1649 ft. lbs.)

 Per Box of 20
$31.96
Order Now

NEW HEAVY 44 MAGNUM +P+ 

This new load is designed for only certain revolvers that have the cylinder length to handle it. They are as follows. Ruger Red Hawk, Ruger Super Red Hawk, Ruger Super Blackhawk or Vaquero, Freedom Arms Model 83, Taurus Raging Bull and Dan Wesson Revolvers. Suitable rifles include T/C Encore, "modified" Marlin 1894, Winchester 1894, any rifle with a falling block action and the Handi Rifle.   

What do we mean above by “modified” Marlin? Marlin (for an unknown, not well thought out reason) is using a very slow rate of twist (1/38 inches) on their 1894 chambered in 44 mag. Because of this slow rate of twist, the heaviest bullet that the factory Marlin will stabilize is about 270grs. Other firearm makers that chamber for the 44 mag all use a much faster rate of twist so that their guns will stabilize and therefore accurately shoot bullets over 300grs. Many folks today want their 44 magnums to be able to utilize the heavy 300gr. and heavier bullets—Marlin has not figured this out. If you want decent accuracy out of our new +p+ load in a Marlin, it will need to be rebarreled with a twist rate of roughly 1/20 inch. I have Dave Clay rebarrel all my Marlin 1894’s with a faster twist barrel. A 44 magnum that wont accurately shoot 300gr. or heavier bullets is useless to me. Call him at 817-783-6099 for pricing.

This load brings a level of power to the 44 mag. that has never before been known. 

The below velocities tell the story. 

5.5 inch factory stock Red Hawk--1401 fps
7.5 inch factory stock Red Hawk--1478 fps



From the BB website.  It seems to me +P+ is not SAMMI. I am more cautious than some I guess and would never declare this, or any ammunition 'Safe', for any other shooter, or handgun than my own, for myself.

I concurr with contacting BB before using in any firearm other than those designated by BB.
Hook686
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Offline Mikey

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2008, 01:22:44 AM »
Hook - that information says nothing about the round being 'over pressure', only too long for some cylinders - which is whatcha get with long heavy slugs  Ammo makers  cannot go over SAAMI pressure limits on these cartridges witihout identifying them - even ammo marked +P+ has to be within the same SAAMI pressure limits as other cartridges within that caliber pressure range - they may be at the top of the pressure range for that cartridge but they are within pressure limits. 

Two cartridges that, I believe, come in the same case size are the 45 Colt and the 454 (yes, maybe???) - anyhow, you can fire the lesser powered cartridge through a revolver chambered for the higher pressured cartridge but not the reverse and to avoid interchanging the cartridges, they call one the 45 Colt and the other the  (what??) 454????

Now, the following is a diatribe on the Buffalo Bore statement and an attempt to add some clarification and trips over into rifles but in pistol calibers.  I don't know which genius at Buffalo Bore wrote that add but he should read from Marshall Stanton at Beartooth Bullets regarding the slow 1:38 twist in Marlin rifles (whether 44 magnum or 444 Marlin calibers), the micro groove barrel and heavy cast bullets before making a blanket statement like that and although this is a Handgun site, the following applies...... 

One other thing Marlin rifle shooters must contend with is Marlin's tendency to 'over bore' rifling in magnum pistol calibers - revolvers in these calibers are just fine but it seems that in a couple of calibers, 41 and 44 magnums, the bore on the Marlin rifles must be slugged to find the true bore diameter and then the reloader must find slugs that fit.  The bore on the 41 Magnum Marlin rifle may run as high as .412 or even .413 and although it will shoot jacketed slugs with some degree of accuracy, cast slugs have to be sized to properly fit the bore.  As well, as 44 magnum Marlin rifle may have a bore that runs to the .431 - .432 diameter and while jacketed slugs may grab enough of the rifling to stabalize, .429-.430 cast slugs (without a gas check) may just sort of skid down the barrel and never stabalize.

Here's an example:  I have 3 444 marlin caliber rifles - all 3 are Winchester Big Bores.  One wears a custom barrel that favors a .432 diameter slug and prefers the 330-350 weight slugs from Beartooth; one other wears a straight 20" Marlin 12 groove 1:38 twist barrel that loves the Beartooth 330 gn gas check and the last one wears a 18" 1:12 twist barrel that also loves the heavier 335 gn slugs.  I have some 405 gn gas check I haven't tried out yet but I'm getting there.  The point here is that Buffo Bore is wrong about Marlin rifles and their barrel twist rates and if you want good information you should go to either Veral Smith's website or to the Beartooth Bullets website and find out what extensive testing of heavy for the bore slugs and the Marlin Microgroove barrel hass done for those 43 bore calibers (44 magnum and 444 Marlin). 

As for the pressure designations - I will repeat:  If they are marked 44 Magnum, whether just 'Magnum', '+P', or '+P+', they are still 44 Magnum slugs and must remain within established SAAMI pressure limits in order to be safe.  Those pressure limits apply to all revolvers or pistols chambered for that caliber, period.  The only caveat the ammoo makers should provide regards overall cartridge length and whether these rounds will fit in the chambers of all handguns or rifles chambered in that caliber.  This is what Buffalo Bore has done, nothing else (except make a bit of an incorrect statement about Marlin rifling).

Oh yeah, one more thing - if you have one of those rifles (Marlin) and want to shoot heavy cast slugs with incredible accuracy, get on down to Veral Smith's website or go to Beartooth Bullets website and get both the information on bore lapping and the materials (kit) to do it.  It will make you happy.  JMTCW.  Mikey.

Offline mattt

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2008, 03:46:26 PM »
Mikey thanks for all the info .The reason I called cabelas was because I did look look at buffalo bores website after my order was placed with cabelas for the ammo and noticed a discrepancie in product application. I read cabelas add for these rounds and thought it was ok for my gun.Then when looking at buffalo bores I realized ther might be a  issue so  I called cabelas not to ask there advice but for  them to correct there add and refund my money since it is in conflict with buffalo bore recomondation for use.Thanks for the input I still have alot to learn and this website is great

Offline Mikey

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2008, 01:00:08 AM »
mattt:  You're welcomed and I hope you can use the information.  But MePlat is right, if you need information regarding a product then you should go right to the manufacturer.  That's the beauty about websites - you can get info directly from those who make the product. 

Buffalo Bore has made a name for itself with quality products.  If there is a concern about using their products in your handgun then I would get clairifcation directly from them.  They may well produce ammo at different pressure levels that may not be suitable for some revolvers and if they say 'No, this particular load should not be used in your S&W Model #, with Serial # xxx' because of this or that, then I would not use it.  If the ammo they load is too long for your cylinder or too long to properly cycle through your lever action, then you should not use it.  HTH and good luck.  Mikey.

Offline MePlat

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2008, 02:13:40 AM »
Mikey is right.  I just got off Cabelas wbsite and it says the same thing for ALL 3 factory loas from BB.  To use them in certain firearms only.  It even says that about the low recoil ammo that is loaded by BB that is UNDER sammi specs too.  Also fro BB concerning Marlin Leverguns.


NEW HEAVY 44 MAGNUM +P+ 

This new load is designed for only certain revolvers that have the cylinder length to handle it. They are as follows. Ruger Red Hawk, Ruger Super Red Hawk, Ruger Super Blackhawk or Vaquero, Freedom Arms Model 83, Taurus Raging Bull and Dan Wesson Revolvers. Suitable rifles include T/C Encore, "modified" Marlin 1894, Winchester 1894, any rifle with a falling block action and the Handi Rifle.   

What do we mean above by “modified” Marlin? Marlin (for an unknown, not well thought out reason) is using a very slow rate of twist (1/38 inches) on their 1894 chambered in 44 mag. Because of this slow rate of twist, the heaviest bullet that the factory Marlin will stabilize is about 270grs. Other firearm makers that chamber for the 44 mag all use a much faster rate of twist so that their guns will stabilize and therefore accurately shoot bullets over 300grs. Many folks today want their 44 magnums to be able to utilize the heavy 300gr. and heavier bullets—Marlin has not figured this out. If you want decent accuracy out of our new +p+ load in a Marlin, it will need to be rebarreled with a twist rate of roughly 1/20 inch. I have Dave Clay rebarrel all my Marlin 1894’s with a faster twist barrel. A 44 magnum that wont accurately shoot 300gr. or heavier bullets is useless to me. Call him at 817-783-6099 for pricing.

Do we see the word MODIFIED concerning the Marlin?  Wonder what that means?
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Offline Mikey

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2008, 03:02:36 AM »
MePlat:  The term 'modified' in the BB write-up means re-barrelling your 1:38 twist Microgroove barrelled Marlin to a 1:20 twist and presumably a Ballard type (6 groove) barrel.

I also e-mailed BB this morning for a clarification of their +P+ designation and have just received the following response directly from BB:

"When the original 44 mag. Remington ammo was released in 1956, it was using a 240gr. bullet at over 1500 fps out of a 6.5 inch S&W. The pressure was running over 50,000 CUP, even though it was specked at much less. It consistently shot those older S&W revolvers loose, but it did not shoot the Ruger revolvers loose--not even close. Since those days 44 mag. ammo has really been watered down by SAAMI.
 
Our +P+ 44 mag ammo is NOT SAAMI spec as it runs much higher pressures. That ammo is running 48,000 CUP to 50,000 CUP. It will not hurt the post 1989 (endurance package) S&W revolvers, nor will it hurt the Ruger Super Black Hawks, nor will it hurt any of the other revolvers we include on the warning label.
 
I have a standard Redhawk here at the factory that I originally used to develop that load. That Red Hawk has at least 5,000 rounds of that very +P+ load through it and is as tight today as it was 20 years ago.
 
Soon we will have a new warning label on that +P+ ammo that will reflect the use of more revolvers than the current warning label does. It should be noted that any/all ammo is hard on guns and shooting any/all ammo wears guns out. However, our +P+ 44 load will wear out any revolver faster than the normal pressure stuff. Hope this helps you some.
 
Tim"

I believe this adequately clarifies the pressure concerns we have discussed in this thread. 

I have also e-mailed them to ask about possible alternatives to rebarrelling a rifle and asked specifically about using the bore lapping procedures recommended by Veral Smith and Marshall Stanton of beartooth Bullets.  I will post their response as soon as I receive it.

HTH.  Mikey.
 

Offline mattt

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2008, 05:56:35 PM »
Mikey great reply from buffalo bore.Got my 340 rounds from ups a hour ago and they chamber in my 1994 629 no proublem.The part of the reply that I am curios of is where buffalo bore states (endurance package) after saying sw after 1989. Is this a special model or is my 1994 629 6.5 barrel this model?

Offline Mikey

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2008, 02:20:03 AM »
mattt:  I believe the post 1989 made revolvers have stronger cylinder locking mechanisms and one or two other enhancements that allow for the continuous use of heavy loads.  As for your particular revolver - contact S&W and they will tell you immediately by the serial number if yours is a special model, er what.  HTH.  Mikey.

Offline S.B.

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2008, 03:48:20 AM »
Sounds like(from their ad) that the bullets are seated out too far for S&Ws? Have you tried them in your S&W to see if the cylinder will turn when closed, as the moderator and others have stated here? The Endurance Package that S&W started putting into their .44 magnum handguns back in the 80s was to upgrade older designs still used for more modern ammo? Too many of the older model 29s were having trouble with their cylinders turning backwards on firing, so, they beefed up the lockwork? IMSHA was the culprit of this hot loading syndrome?
"Apples and Oranges", here ?
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Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2008, 01:35:47 AM »
Pressure blows up guns back thrust loosens up guns. You might get away with shooting them without blowing your gun up but the back thrust is going to shake your smith apart in very short order
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Offline S.B.

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2008, 06:04:30 PM »
Called cabelas and after to 3 poeple the last one pulled up buffalo bores web site saw where they say not for my gun and how the add in cabelas does not say this.They agreed to give me a refund and let me keep the ammo since it cant be returned

Taking some lead off the nose of the bullets may lighten them, causing pressure problems with certain(hotter) loads?
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2008, 01:10:58 AM »
Pressure blows up guns back thrust loosens up guns. You might get away with shooting them without blowing your gun up but the back thrust is going to shake your smith apart in very short order

Lloyd is 100% correct....
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Offline corbanzo

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2008, 09:36:10 PM »
Don't do it.  The smith 29 isn't made for it.

I don't even run the 320 grianers within spec through mine, because I don't want to hurt such a nice gun. 

I have a taurus to try and blow up with over the top .44mag loads.  ;)
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Offline mattt

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2008, 04:32:00 PM »
I dont plan on shooting these rounds I am giving them to a friend with a superblack hawk and told him  to put a hard hat on when trying them out. I shot buffalo bore out of my 500 mag and my forearm and elbow hurt for a week after a box of 20 rounds

Offline BRL

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2008, 10:59:41 AM »
MePlat:  The term 'modified' in the BB write-up means re-barrelling your 1:38 twist Microgroove barrelled Marlin to a 1:20 twist and presumably a Ballard type (6 groove) barrel.

I also e-mailed BB this morning for a clarification of their +P+ designation and have just received the following response directly from BB:

"When the original 44 mag. Remington ammo was released in 1956, it was using a 240gr. bullet at over 1500 fps out of a 6.5 inch S&W. The pressure was running over 50,000 CUP, even though it was specked at much less. It consistently shot those older S&W revolvers loose, but it did not shoot the Ruger revolvers loose--not even close. Since those days 44 mag. ammo has really been watered down by SAAMI.
 
Our +P+ 44 mag ammo is NOT SAAMI spec as it runs much higher pressures. That ammo is running 48,000 CUP to 50,000 CUP. It will not hurt the post 1989 (endurance package) S&W revolvers, nor will it hurt the Ruger Super Black Hawks, nor will it hurt any of the other revolvers we include on the warning label.
 
I have a standard Redhawk here at the factory that I originally used to develop that load. That Red Hawk has at least 5,000 rounds of that very +P+ load through it and is as tight today as it was 20 years ago.
 
Soon we will have a new warning label on that +P+ ammo that will reflect the use of more revolvers than the current warning label does. It should be noted that any/all ammo is hard on guns and shooting any/all ammo wears guns out. However, our +P+ 44 load will wear out any revolver faster than the normal pressure stuff. Hope this helps you some.
 
Tim"

I believe this adequately clarifies the pressure concerns we have discussed in this thread. 

I have also e-mailed them to ask about possible alternatives to rebarrelling a rifle and asked specifically about using the bore lapping procedures recommended by Veral Smith and Marshall Stanton of beartooth Bullets.  I will post their response as soon as I receive it.

HTH.  Mikey.
 

Mikey, have you heard back from BB regarding their comment on bore lapping? I am considering doing that for my Redhawk but have never done anything like that myself before and would like to know its true benefits, if any, before I try something like that.

Tubb's makes a loaded ammo with compound impregnated bullets (for bore polishing) I had thought about trying. Any thoughts or experience with that product? That would certainly save me the time and potential disasters.

Thanks!!
B. Leeber
Nutritional Biochemist

Offline Gun 4 Fun

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2008, 09:57:22 PM »
Mattt, Mikey,

I'm new here so don't want to step on any toes, also I see I'm about 3 months behind. Anyhow I can answer some of the questions about the S&W endurance package.
S&W knew they had to toughen up their N frames or come up with a new design if they wanted to compete with Dan Wesson and Ruger back in the 80's. They had been getting a lot of complaints about their guns shooting loose, especially from silhouette shooters. In 1988 they began the endurance program and made quite a few changes to the N frame over the next two years. They started at Mod. 29-4 which was only in production for two years, before changing to the 29-5 in 1990. With the introduction of the 29-5 the changes were complete. Some of the changes were cutting the locking bolt notches longer to prevent the cylinder from unlatching and rotating backwards during the firing of magnum loads, the locking bolt was changed in shape and size and a stronger spring was used to hold the bolt in the locking notch. The screw that holds the yoke in the fame was changed from a hand fitted one that wore out over time to the newer one with the little pointed plunger that is spring loaded. The bearing surfaces on the yoke barrel were lengthened to give more surface area, the yoke was hardened to keep from wearing and stretching. A bolt block was placed inside that blocked the trigger "kickback" that was common with heavy loads. All internal studs and their mating recesses were given a radius at the shoulder to prevent snapping off. There are probably some others that Ican't recall off the top of my head, but that covers most of them.
Mattt, any S&W N frame made after 1990 is an endurance gun. Where it is wise to limit the guns made before that date to occasional use with full power loads, any made after that date will stand up to a steady diet of full power loads.
I'm not talking about the B.B. loads you ordered and gave away. I'm refering to factory equivalent loads. Also, I don't remember exactly when, but saami lowered the pressure specs on the .44 from 43,500c.u.p. to 36,000 p.s.i. As Tim Sundles said, the Smith's were taking 50,000 c.u.p. Yea they were loosening up quickly, but the cylinders were taking the pressure, locking notches over the center of the chambers and all. Those B.B. loads won't hurt your gun if you just use them to sight in and hunt with, but you don't want to shoot alot of them in a Smith, even one with the endurance package. Besides that's a lot of recoil to take in a gun no heavier than a Smith.

Offline Mikey

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2008, 01:48:46 AM »
BRL:  BB never got back to me on the 'rebarrel or lap' issue but I would suggest you get on over to the Beartooth Bullets website and review what the site says about fire lapping your rifle or pistol and order the lapping materials if you intend to work with that barrel. 

One well written aspect of the Beartooth literature speaks to getting the Marlin Micro-groove barrel to shoot cast bullets accurately by borelapping the barrel.  It is very informative.  I have used the process and am quite satisfied with the results.  Mikey.

Offline S.E.Ak

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2008, 02:39:29 AM »
You can stick a 454 and fire it in the older S&W mod.25 but the result ain't pretty.You have better luck shooting the 454 in the old Redhawk 45 colt,think that's why they quit selling them back around 1990.

Offline S.B.

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2008, 04:30:32 AM »
I don't own any .454 Casul brass but, I always thought the Casul brass was longer, to prevent loading in older .45 Colt chambers?
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Offline Gun 4 Fun

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2008, 08:56:39 AM »
I own several Smith and Wessons chambered in .45 and they will not take .454 rounds and be able to come anywhere near closing. The Redhawk came out in .45 in 1999 and was available for 7 years in that caliber, but Ruger wasn't selling as many in .45 after the SuperRedhawk came out in .454/.45, so they dropped the chambering. Now I'm happy to say you can get a regular Redhawk in.45 again. The Supers are nice, but UGLY and heavy compared to a standard Redhawk. Alot of us would prefer to carry a double action in something more packable on our hip than the Super is.
  By the way, my Redhawk made in 1999 won't take the .454's either.

 Wasn't this post about +p+ 340 gr. Buffalo Bore loads?

Offline inluvwithsara

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2008, 09:08:17 AM »
about 5-6 years back I called Smith when I was about to buy a 629 and asked about 300 grain factory rounds being used in their gun, the lady told me that smith only considers 240 grain and lighter to be proper factory loads and that anything heavier would void my warrenty, I argued that there were several large companies now making 300 grainers and she said the same thing again...I have been called a liar about this and wish I had it in writing, and maybe the lady was bs'ing me, but that is what she said, I called Ruger, and they said as long as its factory bullet weight is not an issue...

My call to smith and the response of smith owners to me about has changed me to a email only guy...
Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

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Re: Buffalo bore 340gr +p+ In sw29
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2008, 10:11:28 AM »
I believe you, for what that's worth. I just called S&W recently on an unrelated matter, and I'm always suprised when the personanswering the phone doesn't seem to know anything without having to ask "someone in the back". If they put them in charge of customer service, shouldn't they at least know the basics?