Savage 110FP or Rem. 700 Sendero? (modified)

[AiredaleTerrier]

Looking at the Remington 700 Sendero and the Savage 110FP for long range paper/steel.  Which one would be a better rifle out of the box?  I know the Savages are cheaper, but I hear they are shooters.   What do you guys know of these two models?

(This is what I'm really wanting to know)

[Bart Solo]

Looking at the Remington 700 Sendero in 25.06 and the Savage 110FP in same caliber for deer at 650yds (provided I can shoot that far).  Which one comes from the factory with more accuracy enhancing features?  I know the Savages are cheaper, but I hear they are shooters.   What you guys know of these two models?

I have photographed deer from 650 yards, but for the life of me I don't know why anybody would want to shoot at that distance. Where do  you hunt? 

As to your specific question if you can afford it, get the Remington.

[Swampman]

There a good reason USMC snipers shoot Remingtons.

[jvs]

Looking at the Remington 700 Sendero in 25.06 and the Savage 110FP in same caliber for deer at 650yds (provided I can shoot that far).  Which one comes from the factory with more accuracy enhancing features?  I know the Savages are cheaper, but I hear they are shooters.   What do you guys know of these two models?

Sounds like you are looking for casualties and not the kill.  Your grouping at that distance is 'on paper' and probably a Gut-Shot.  If it was me at that distance, I would be using one of the mags like the 6.5mm Rem Mag / 120 to 129 gr..   The .30-06 is also a good contender for that distance.

IMO, there's not much hunting going on at that distance.

[Coyote Hunter]

The .25-06 is a great cartridge but wouldn't be my choice for hunting at 650 yards.  Even if you're shooting paper I think there are better options.

Had my .257 roberts at the range today and ringing the steel gong at 500 was no challenge.  The clay pigeons at 400, even though the breeze was light, were considerably more difficult.

For 650 yards I'd want a heavier bullet than is available in a .25 - maybe a .264 Win Mag as a starter.  A .308 would be a good choice for paper, a .30-06 would be better for hunting (but still on the light side for my taste). 

[Graybeard]

I'm opposed to taking shots at game at such ranges. That you need to ask the question tells me you are not up to the task and your selection of the .25-06 further convinces me of that. It's a bit weak that far out so that even if you make the shot it's not in my opinion up to the task out there.

I'm also not a fan of belted magnum rifles but seriously if you are gonna try to get yourself ready for shooting game at such distances I highly suggest you move up to a .30 magnum of one sort or another and use bullets designed to expand at the lower velocity you'll have way out there.

I'd rather see you forget the idea of shooting at game at such ranges completely but if you are gonna do it at least get a rifle up to the task and then practice, practice, practice on paper until you are capable of making a killing shot on paper first time every time from field rest positions. ONLY when you can should you even consider shooting at a deer at such ranges.

I've been shooting since I was six years old and am now 63. I have fired untold tens of thousands of rounds now up into the hundreds of thousands I guess and have done a bit of long range shooting at prairie dogs as well. I do NOT consider myself up to the task of shooting deer at that range from field rest positions.

[Kurt L]

I use a 30-50BMG for long rang shots like this.
it sends a 180 Hornady sst out at 4300 fps and 3" groups at 1000 yds.

just pulling your chain  have fun.

[wareagleguy]

I took a mule deer at a little over 600 yards a few years ago.  I would not try it with anything less than a 7 mag.  After that, the problem is going to be able to setup on the animal.  You are not going to be able to hold a rifle to make that kind of shot.  You will need to be shooting from a good rest.  Another thing to consider is KNOWING the rage of the rifle and the range of the target.  The wind is going to be another thing to consider.

Bottom line is it can be done but there are alot if things that can go wrong.

[Bart Solo]

I was just reading an article by jim Clary about Class F Long Range Target Shooting.  http://www.chuckhawks.com/f-class_shooting.htm

The article is about the kind of rifle needed to be competitive in Class F, but toward the end he posts a couple of really telling pictures and makes the following observation.

600 yards is a far piece, and even with a 20x pair of binoculars, the 24” target looks tiny (that is a white RV van to the right of the targets). Now, imagine a deer or antelope at that distance (a 10" target area, maximum). Even for an expert marksman using an F-Class target rifle, such a shot would be questionable. For the average hunter with a hunting rifle it would be irresponsible. If you were to hit the animal at that range, the odds are that it would be wounded and condemned to a slow, painful death. My advice is to keep your hunting shots within the MPBR of your cartridge/load or 300 yards at the most, because even at that distance your bullet will drop at least 15 inches. The drop at 600 yards for most hunting rifles is in excess of 91 inches (7.6 feet).

[AiredaleTerrier]

I appreciate all the input.  I have very little experience with centerfire rifles, and even less with bolt actions.  My experience is mostly with the T/Cs and Handis.  Here in IL we can only hunt with slug guns, handguns, and blackpowder.  I have two places in Mo. to hunt deer and at my house I can shoot 650yds (laser ranged) at paper and coyotes when the crops are out.  I haven't shot anything past 150yds in my limited experience.  The ground in Mo. has two high voltage power lines running through it.  So the chance for long shots at deer does exist there.  650 yds is the farthest I can practice at home.  I have a Handi in 25.06 and reload for it, hence the idea of a bolt action in this caliber.  I'm not a big guy by any means, so I'd like to stay away from heavy recoiling calibers.  So if anyone is thinking I'm inexperienced, you are correct.  That is why I'm asking the questions.  So, which rifle has more accuracy potential (brand name aside).  Which one is bedding method is better?  I don't know, so what do you guys know of these two rifles?  Caliber suggestions, if any...

Thanks again

[Tunaman]

I want to start out by saying that I agree that the 25-06 is not the right round for what you want to do but with Berger's new 25 VLD, you could probably get close. The Sendaro in 7 mag would be a better choice than either in 25-06. The Sendero is a 8/12# rifle, without scope and mounting hardware and with a scope capable of reliably making 650 yard shots, the Rifle will probably weigh close to eleven pounds loaded. That weight should soak up a bunch of recoil. If you are going to attempt to make shots at the range that you are talking about, you really need to shoot an appropriate cartridge or limit your shots to the capabilities of the cartridge that you are shooting. There are a bunch of high BC bullets in 7mm but very few in 25 cal. The 7mag also carries much more energy to 600yards than does a 25-06. With all of that said, the 7 mag sendero would be my choice, given only those choices, but the reality is that it will probably take years of shooting at that distance before you can reliably but your round where it needs to go every time. If you are going to do it you better start practicing.

[RaySendero]

Ran some numbers for ya.

All sighted in at 200 yds and numbers shown are for 650 yds:

1) a .257/117 Sierra GK at 3,000 fps muzzle velocity will:

• Drop 95"
• Move 43" in 10 mph crosswind
• Retain 1,590 fps velocity
• Retain 660 ft-lbs energy

2) a .284/175 Sierra GK at 2,850 fps muzzle velocity will:

• Drop 89"
• Move 30" in 10 mph crosswind
• Retain 1,835 fps velocity
• Retain 1,310 ft-lbs energy

3) a .308/200 Sierra GK at 2,825 fps muzzle velocity will:

• Drop 89"
• Move 29" in 10 mph crosswind
• Retain 1,840 fps velocity
• Retain 1,500 ft-lbs energy

Looks to me that the 25/06 will not retain anywhere near the energy a 7 Rem Mag or 300 Win does at 650 yards!

PS:
If you proceed - Make sure the barrel twist rates are fast enough to shoot these long for caliber, high BC, bullets.

[LONGTOM]

AiredaleTerrier
I have to agree with most all of the others that neither you or your gun is up to such a long shot.
I have been shooting long range for a number of years now on a regular basis using a WINCHESTER model 70 in 270wsm and have been using 270s for over 40 years.
I consider my self a pretty good long range shooter but even I put the brakes on past 500!

Can it be done?
I'm sure it could with the right equipment and lots of practice provided everything went as planed.

I just watched a video of a fellow shooting a 338 EDGE using a 300 grain Sierra Matchking bullet and drop a muledeer in his tracks at 950yds across a ravine.
He adjusted 21.5" moa for a 213" drop.

It was a heck of a shot with a lot of luck!!!

I don't know how to post video or I would.

Any way back to you. I think everyone else has covered about all that needs to be said.

My only advice is before you try such a shot learn your equipment and master it and with luck you might pull it off.
Also while you are at it PLEASE LEARN HOW TO TRACK.
I'm sure you are going to need it!!!


LONGTOM

[squirrellluck]

just my opinion but... if you are bound and determined to attempt hunting at that range first do the research yourself that way you will know and remember your bullistics next buy the rifle you decide on 3rd put away all your other guns and hunt and shoot exclusively with that rifle shoot it until it is more familiar to you than your wifes face until its an exstintion of you then after all that be hoest with yourself and the game you wish to take. ask yourself,can i cleanly take this animal just my personal rant   luck to you

[Bart Solo]

I would still buy the Remington but I would buy it in 7mm rem mag. 

[Graybeard]

I'm not a big guy by any means, so I'd like to stay away from heavy recoiling calibers.

This is a commonly heard falacy but a person's size has nothing to do with the recoil level they can tolerate and in fact some times being smaller and lighter actually helps. Some women can tolerate high levels of recoil.

Elmer Keith the most well known of big bore heavy recoil guys was a rather small man really but seemed to ignore recoil for the most part.

As I said I'm not a beliver in such long shots at game but if you really are gonna do it get a rifle adequate to the job and shoot it until you KNOW you can make the shot every time before you shoot it at game.

[skb2706]

Looking at the Remington 700 Sendero and the Savage 110FP for long range paper/steel.  Which one would be a better rifle out of the box?  I know the Savages are cheaper, but I hear they are shooters.   What do you guys know of these two models?

(This is what I'm really wanting to know)

Don't own nor have   I shot a Savage LP, I do have a Sendero in .300 Win mag that is rediculously accurate. 400-500 yds. shots are very doable. In my opinion it is the most accurate factory long range rifle you can get based on a small sampling of guns.

[SHOOTALL]

swampman have you ever seen a USMC sniper rifle ? If so you would know it looks little like a box stock 700 .

[teddy12b]

There’s nothing wrong with asking questions about guns or hunting techniques.  That’s what this place is all about and I’m very grateful for what I’ve learned on this website.

I’ve never owned or shot a sendero, but I’ve held a few in the stores and they are a sweet rifle with an outstanding reputation for accuracy.  I do own a 110FP but it was a special order in 30-06.  My 110FP barely shoots under ½” at 100 yards if I do my part.  

I’ve thought about buying a sendero many times and I don’t think you’d find much difference between a 110FP and a sendero accuracy wise.  It’s more of a personal fit and preference between the two.

I’ve shooting long range (greater than 300 yards) for almost a year now and I’m still learning a lot about it.  Out to 300 yards unless the wind is really going crazy you don’t have to worry about a lot if you know your bullet drop or hold over.  400 yards and past the wind plays more of a part of shooting than people like to admit.  I have charts for my bullet drop out to 1000 yards and have hit targets out that far, but not on the first shot.  

Long range target shooting is my favorite hobby in this world, but long range hunting is a completely different animal because there are no sighting shots for hunting.  Maybe I’ll think differently after more time shooting long range, but don’t expect to be able to make a 650 yard cold bore shot in one years time from now.  

Take the best rifle you have now and set up targets out to 500 yards and start shooting at them.  That will give you an idea of the challenge you’re putting in front of yourself.  I think it’s great that you want to learn to shoot longer range targets, but I would have to agree that for the most part use long range target shooting as a means to make closer shots easier and not use shots over 300 yards for hunting.  You’ll understand what I’m talking about once you start shooting out past 300 yards.  It’s a lot tougher than people think.

[nomosendero]

I have 2 Sendero's & have shot others. They tend to be very accurate. The Savage FP does well too & I would put the average Savage rifle with the average M700 any time, but the Sendero specifically is more consistant than the regular 700. I would give it a small edge over the FP.

[xsilver03x]

Looking at the Remington 700 Sendero and the Savage 110FP for long range paper/steel.  Which one would be a better rifle out of the box?  I know the Savages are cheaper, but I hear they are shooters.   What do you guys know of these two models?

(This is what I'm really wanting to know)

Are you still shooting steel or are you shooting meat?

I think that shots at that range are a little crazy and unethical.  You owe it to the animal to give it a clean kill!  But the paper and steel can die a mean death! 

I would find a gun that you are comfy with personally I would go withthe Savage, not a Remmy fan, and build it to your like'n.  I have a Savage 308 and love it but I keep my shots close 200 and in.  If I have the chace to shoot a nice buck, REAL nice buck out to say 400 I would. But I would also try to get a little closer too!