Author Topic: I'm I the only one here wonder this?  (Read 1785 times)

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Offline lefty red

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I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« on: December 05, 2008, 12:55:46 PM »
Why is the T/C Omega and Triumph so darn expensive!  The models I want, SS and polymer stocks, are like $500-$550!  I can get a Savage 10ML-II for that kind of money, and have all the benefits of it.  What is the deal with T/C?

I have been looking HARD for THE ML rifle for next year's deer hunt.  I'm out of it this year due to broken ankle.  Like I've posted before, I really want this to be a good, quality rifle.  I want to be able to past this Rolfe down to the Young Prince.  But, I'm a frugal arse also.  I was riased by depression affected elders and by a single mom.  I know you pay for quaility.  I will shop and bargain the purchase to get the best deal.  I've thought many times to get up and shoot a CVA Wolf!  They will get the job done as well, but not as cool I guess.  And they are not up to the long shots I might be taken.

Now, the Omegas and Triumph I have shot have been great MLs.  I mean top of the line.  If they ever get back to swapping barrels, a shotgun one and 36 or 32 cal for squirrels, these are two great platforms to work off of.  But they also have all the downsides of MLs shooting BP subs (IMHO).  For the same money, I can get the Savage and have none of the downsides of cleaning up after BP subs.  If the T/Cs were setup to shoot smokeless, I could see the reason for the price tag.  But they don't.  They have the same rating as 90% of other new models from other companies.  And some of these models are as nice as the T/Cs but 30% cheaper.

I think what set me off on this rant is I was going to go ahead and buy a T/C Omega or Triumph.  My wife was looking on line at BPS for stocking stuffers and my gift, when she saw the offer for pay in six months for orders over $125.  She told me to give her what I have saved up and the rest would be paid off with my holiday pay.  I think she was basically sick and tired of me whining about this rifle.  So I thought why not.  I'm only going to be shooting this rifle a few times each year at deer, maybe 10-15 shots a year.  I can live with 777 for now.  But when we looked on line, I couldn't believe it.  The T/Cs were as much as or more than the Savage.  And don't get me started on the Knight's Long Range rifles!  I guess I was looking at specs and whatnot's and not the price.

So, I guess I'm back at square one, saving up for the Savage.  At least I don't feel as bad for wanting it now.  It does seem to be the best bang for a buck in top of the line MLs.

Jerry 
I'll be needing that for squirrels and such.....

I ain't never been lost in my life, been a might confused for a month or so.....

Pilgram, are you sure you know how to skin grizzer bear.....

Don't run little squirrel, you'll only die tired....

Offline kyelkhunter3006

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Re: I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2008, 01:01:54 PM »
Brother, you've just got to hit the net and shop around.  I bought a new Omega stainless/syn during late summer this year for $295 shipped.  Deals are out there, just waiting.  Last year I got a new Omega Z5 at Wal-Mart for $158.  Look on gunbroker.com, auctionarms.com and gunsamerica.com.  If you want a good rifle at a great price, get a T/C Black Diamond.  I've seen them sell NIB for $150 or so for the blued, and under $200 for the stainless.  Same thing with a Knight Wolverine.  For the money, you absolutely cannot beat those two rifles.

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2008, 01:17:09 PM »
You want a muzzleloader? Check out the CVA Accura

Offline kyelkhunter3006

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Re: I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2008, 01:26:48 PM »
Prices are kind of what he's getting at.... Accura's are selling for $400-$450 too, most places.  Cabela's has the stainless/syn for $389 right now.

Offline lefty red

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Re: I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2008, 02:45:47 PM »
I will shop around, but the prices are just staggering.  Most gunshops around here just stock the cheaper/starter MLs.  Wally World around here doesn't even sell MLs anymore.  You have to take a leap of faith and order it sight unseen if you want a higher end ML.  I'm truefully thankful that I have great fellow member at the gun range.

On of my favorite gun shops sells only new CVA Wolf MLs.  The owner is a great guy.  He stands behind anything he sells 100%.  His views on MLs is about that of 75% of other deer hunter around here.  They view MLs as a niche to give hunters a third season for deer.  He states that the Wolf's 4" @ 100 yards is more than enough for the 13" kill zone of your average So IL whitetail.  And he is right, the Wolf is capable of taking any deer within that 100 yards.  Several local owners, and here on line, back this up.  And with me maybe shooting twenty five times this year and fifthteen a year after that, I have no doubt the Wolf will last ten years or more easy.  But, with cover in decline and very line rowlines of cover, I'm finding I want a longer range weapon.  Especially on public hunting grounds, where I'm forced to hunt 95% of the time.  And I really want a nice rifle.  I'm just vain I guess.

The CVA Accra is a nice rifle.  But just like I will not buy a $20,000 Hyundai, I will not pay $400 for a CAV rifle.  Sorry, it doesn't offer anything over an older T/C or Knight.
I'll be needing that for squirrels and such.....

I ain't never been lost in my life, been a might confused for a month or so.....

Pilgram, are you sure you know how to skin grizzer bear.....

Don't run little squirrel, you'll only die tired....

Offline lefty red

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Re: I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2008, 09:40:46 PM »
You want a muzzleloader? Check out the CVA Accura

bigblock

That was a cheap shot I took at CVA and your suggestion, and I was going it with tongue in cheek.  The Accura is the best rifle I've seen with the CVA name on it.

The only problem I have with it, is the fact it cost just as much as the Triumph.  And both of them are within $150 of a Savage.  If they are built that strong, then why isn't T/C and CVA making MLs that can handle smokeless powder?  I doubt it would effect the price of the rifle that much.

BTW, I've spent several hours searching and reading the CVA forum and you are going a great job moderating it.  I plan on buying a used CVA Optima in 45cal for the Oldest Princess to use in 2009.  She likes the way it handles, and its priced right.

Jerry 
I'll be needing that for squirrels and such.....

I ain't never been lost in my life, been a might confused for a month or so.....

Pilgram, are you sure you know how to skin grizzer bear.....

Don't run little squirrel, you'll only die tired....

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2008, 07:08:49 AM »
I did have a long type up going but then it hit me.....  Once you order that .45 Accura, You'll be ordering one for yourself  ;D LOL.

Ask Underclocked, He now has THREE!

Offline lefty red

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Re: I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2008, 03:32:06 AM »
I did have a long type up going but then it hit me.....  Once you order that .45 Accura, You'll be ordering one for yourself ;D LOL.

Ask Underclocked, He now has THREE!

I know, I"m still impressed with the fit and function of the Optima Pro that my Oldest Princess is eyeing.  Far from the Apollos I remember.

I read all of UC's posting over at modernmuzzleloading.com this weekend.  For a guy who has a few high end American made MLs, he sure does like the Accura.  If I remember right, he even sold a Triumph to get another.

But it still about kills me to pay almost $500 for a CVA!  Might have to go to counseling about it!  LOL

Jerry
I'll be needing that for squirrels and such.....

I ain't never been lost in my life, been a might confused for a month or so.....

Pilgram, are you sure you know how to skin grizzer bear.....

Don't run little squirrel, you'll only die tired....

Offline Underclocked

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Re: I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2008, 05:48:26 AM »
No, I've not owned a Triumph.  I really do NOT like TC's QLA system.  I also think TC should supply a more consistently good trigger at a reasonable pull-weight on their rifles (though I've not really heard any complaints about the Triumph trigger).   Paying 8 or 9 hundred for an Endeavor with an 8 or 9 lb trigger pull doesn't sound too cool.   I've owned three Encores and two of them required trigger work.  My G2 Contender didn't "require" it but I put a lighter spring in it anyway.

The Knight KP1 would be Knight's most comparable break-open to the TCs.   Like some of the TCs, it is comparatively heavy and has its own share of issues.  I've owned one since they became available and, as far as I'm concerned, it's still a work in progress.

The Accura is a very well made rifle.   The internals of the action are something of a mystery to me still, as I've not found any need at all to tinker with one.  Triggers are amazing!!  I have bought three (one is for a friend) and, though one of them is my favorite trigger-wise, the difference in them is almost nil.  The barrels are very high quality and extremely well done.  The rifle is light yet handles recoil well and balances nicely. 

There are a couple of minor things I would recommend CVA change, but nothing of major consequense.  Removing the included sling from the packaging would allow them to drop the price a few bucks and the injected molded sling studs should be replaced with conventional metal ones or simply removed.  The rifle shoots Blackhorn 209 very well (and so does the Triumph per all accounts) ... so there go your smokeless comparisons.  BH209 walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and exhibits most all the same characteristics as a smokeless duck (including carbon deposits in breech plugs).   

I cannot say about durability of the action components but CVA's lifetime warranty is as real as any.  To say I like the Accura is a bit of an understatement.  CVA has come very, very close to getting it RIGHT so far as a breakopen inline.   My Whites still hold a place of honor and I likely won't ever part with the two I have left - but picking up the Accura to go hunting is an equally easy choice.



ps: the black spiderweb stocked Accura at Cabela's is $389.99 and Cabela's is offering $20 off coupons or free shipping (whichever is to your greater advantage).  The CVA $40 rebate brings the total down and CVA paid my first rebate application in almost record time.  I've only recently sent in the second rebate.  (Gun three for the friend was not purchased retail).   I will also add that your comment about offering nothing by comparison to older TCs or Knights is not accurate, IMHO. 
WHUT?

Offline Underclocked

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Re: I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2008, 05:59:27 AM »
and ONE more thing...   ;D   I do understand that some Wal-Marts are selling a TC Triumph for $275.
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Offline lefty red

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Re: I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2008, 08:28:26 AM »
Underclocked

Sorry, I got you messed up with another Accura lover on another forum.  He was from Florida.

As far as BH209, It DOES NOT compare to AA 5477 or other smokeless powder.  Its not available in my AO.  The range members that used it this year had to get it in MO at Cabela's or BPS.  There is talk of a mass order among members to save on shipping and hazardous costs.  And at $35 for a 10oz jar, at a 100 gr load, you will only get around 44 loads and that is 80 cent a shot just for powder.  True smokeless powder is still bought for $20 for a 16oz jar.  A recommend load of 45gr will give me 155 loadings at only 13 cents a shot.  Not to mention, true smokeless powder has a longer shelf life.

Cabela's do seem to have the better prices, but they require even MLs to be shipped to a FFL for IL buyers.  At least BPS DOES NOT, YET.

And, even thought its IMHO vs IYHO, can you really say that an older Black Diamond or Wolverine is not a better made rifle than what CVA has ever put out.  And yes, I include the Accura in that lineup.  If the powders of today was introduced  ten years ago, what kind of rep would T/C and Knight have then?  I would say a damn near religious like following. They were strong back then and continue to remain so.  What about CVA?  I'm guessing they would never last do to lawsuits of unsafe products.  Can you imagine the horror's of putting 120 grs of BH209 down a barrel of a rifle that couldn't handle 150 grs of Pyrex or BP? 

If I could take a Black Diamond XR, make it stainless, add a quicker removable bolt (almost like a "real" rifle's), and Triumph's breech plugs I would have my "perfect" ML.  A great shooting ML capable of 200 yard shots with super quick between shot barrel swabbing and clean up.

As of today, CVA Accura (SS and Camo Stock) is $499 at BPS, $459 at Cabela's, and $479 at Dick's Sporting Good's.  T/C Triumph is about $75 more across the board.  Savage 10ML-II in SS and laminated stock is $650 ordered from Dick's.  I'm still saving up my milk money.

No, my Wally World diesn't sells ANY rifles, so I can't comment on their cheap Triumphs.

Jerry

 
I'll be needing that for squirrels and such.....

I ain't never been lost in my life, been a might confused for a month or so.....

Pilgram, are you sure you know how to skin grizzer bear.....

Don't run little squirrel, you'll only die tired....

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2008, 09:07:05 AM »
Triump also comes with a painted barrel. If you compare the ss/camo Accura VS painted barrel/camo triump. The Accura IS the best value of the Two.

The only thing that tc has beat the accura with is the speed breech and to me, thats dont mean a thing. All of my rifles right at the moment dont even have an removable breech plug.

As for BH209, I wont buy it as i do not see it being worth it.  I spend a good deal of  $$$$ of rifles and i take care of my stuff.  100gr charges  eat up powder REALLY fast and that 10oz bottle isnt going to cut it. Everything i own shoot 80gr pyrodex RS - 70gr Pyrodex P with either a powerbelt or a patched round ball. My only hog i have now is my traditions flintlock that wants 110gr 3f to shoot the best groups possible and i havent shot real BP in it for a LONG time! That charge eats powder up like if you were to pour the BP on a rock outside on a windy day  ;D

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_218/products_id/54071

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_218/products_id/54069

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Offline Underclocked

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Re: I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2008, 06:37:54 PM »
Lefty Red, where the heck are you?  You should be able to find a Black Diamond on the cheap and re-invent the thing.   

Wal-Marts DO still sell firearms in many parts of the country - especially muzzleloaders.

Sorry, but how can you speak with any authority about rifles you have never owned or handled?   Someone so full of authoritive opinion shouldn't have such difficulty choosing a rifle.

If pigs had wings, they could maybe fly.

And, not that it would be of any interest to you, BH209 can be ordered for $25.98 per container (plus shipping and HAZMAT).   That would yield considerable savings on a group order. 

Keep saving that milk money.



WHUT?

Offline AndyHass

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Re: I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2008, 04:51:47 AM »
MLs used to be cheap guns.  By this I mean they were pretty basic designs that made a ton of comprimised and offered little in the way of user-friendliness. 

The current generation of MLs is decidedly up-scale from what was available when I started.  I could get a VERY basic gun for around $80 in the early 90s, and my starter was $120 and was no-frills.  Those no-frills guns are absent from the shelves now!  What has replaced them is better quality (across all brands) and much higher on the user-friendliness scale. 

All this costs money, and the prices go up.  If you compare MLs to similar level centerfires the MLs are still cheaper but the gap has closed as quality and design has improved.

What is an entry-level Remington 700 going for now, $400-$500?

Offline Busta

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Re: I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2008, 07:21:48 AM »
And at $35 for a 10oz jar, at a 100 gr load, you will only get around 44 loads and that is 80 cent a shot just for powder. 

lefty red,

I won't try to argue the fact that smokeless is much cheaper to shoot, but you have some mis-information in that statement. How did you come to the conclusion that you would only get 44 loads per container?

10 oz WEIGHT BH209 = 4375 grains WEIGHT

100 grains VOLUME = 70 grains WEIGHT

120 grains VOLUME (MAX charge) = 84 grains WEIGHT

10 oz (4375 grains WEIGHT) = 62.5 (100 gr VOLUME, 70 gr WEIGHT) charges or 52 (120 gr VOLUME, 84 gr WEIGHT charges per container.

Western uses a 0.7 multiplier when converting VOLUME to WEIGHT. The 120 gr VOLUME (84 gr WEIGHT) charge is the equivelant of a 150 grain Pellet or 150 gr charge of loose Black Powder.



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Offline lefty red

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Re: I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2008, 07:59:56 AM »
And at $35 for a 10oz jar, at a 100 gr load, you will only get around 44 loads and that is 80 cent a shot just for powder. 

lefty red,

I won't try to argue the fact that smokeless is much cheaper to shoot, but you have some mis-information in that statement. How did you come to the conclusion that you would only get 44 loads per container?

10 oz WEIGHT BH209 = 4375 grains WEIGHT

100 grains VOLUME = 70 grains WEIGHT

120 grains VOLUME (MAX charge) = 84 grains WEIGHT

10 oz (4375 grains WEIGHT) = 62.5 (100 gr VOLUME, 70 gr WEIGHT) charges or 52 (120 gr VOLUME, 84 gr WEIGHT charges per container.

Western uses a 0.7 multiplier when converting VOLUME to WEIGHT. The 120 gr VOLUME (84 gr WEIGHT) charge is the equivelant of a 150 grain Pellet or 150 gr charge of loose Black Powder.





I stand corrected Busta.  I was using volume measurements.  And then my "math" would not be correct.

Jerry

Jerry
I'll be needing that for squirrels and such.....

I ain't never been lost in my life, been a might confused for a month or so.....

Pilgram, are you sure you know how to skin grizzer bear.....

Don't run little squirrel, you'll only die tired....

Offline lefty red

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Re: I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2008, 09:03:56 AM »
Lefty Red, where the heck are you?  You should be able to find a Black Diamond on the cheap and re-invent the thing.   

Wal-Marts DO still sell firearms in many parts of the country - especially muzzleloaders.

Sorry, but how can you speak with any authority about rifles you have never owned or handled?   Someone so full of authoritive opinion shouldn't have such difficulty choosing a rifle.

If pigs had wings, they could maybe fly.

And, not that it would be of any interest to you, BH209 can be ordered for $25.98 per container (plus shipping and HAZMAT).   That would yield considerable savings on a group order. 

Keep saving that milk money.





In Illinois, and VERY FEW places ship here without a FFL or DNA sample!  I have found some great deals on the Black Diamond, but its not worth the extra money having it shipped and FFL fees or gas money.  Same goes for propellent.

Wal Mart DOES NOT sell any longguns, including MLs in my area.  I can take a two hour drive and find them in some stores in St Louis.  Padauch KY does sell them also, but they get squirrel sometimes about "out of staters" buying from them.  Sometimes the "manager" enforces a 24 hour waiting period.  Now, I have the gas money 2X.

I don't now what rifle's you talk of.  I have owned the Black Diamond and M85.  Sold the M85 to a cousin because I just liked the Black Diamond so much.  BIL borrowed the Black Diamond and only God knows where it is now.  We haven't heard from him in about a year.  I have picked up a few CVAs over the past four years, mostly as quick turn around rifles to sell at gunshows or at the range's bulletin's board.  Majority of them shot fine for under 100 yard deer hunting.  I don't think I would a heavy load in any of them.  A saboted HP or Power Belt and 80-100 grs of propellent was all that used in them.  If you are talking about the Accura, then I don't have much hands on experience with it.  A fellow range member has one and it shot very well.  But I still don't think its worth more than a NEF breakopen.  In fact, I find the NEF a bit stronger.  But that is my thoughts on it.  I am not seeling this advise, or in couraging others to follow it.  Don't lose sleep because I don't think its the best thing since sliced bread.  If it was priced at $300 for SS and camo stock, I would seriously think about it.  But not when its as much as a Triumph.

As far as the newer cheap MLs being stronger, I hope so.  I still don't think they are.  Most are not suggested to use with the newest propellent, Black Horn 209.  With that said, I am almost willing to lay a bet down that there are more deer taken with a cheap ML (like a Wolf) and over the counter propellent from Wal Mart than anything eles.

But I think most readers are reading WAY TOO MUCH into this tread.  I was ranting about the cost of MLs that can not shoot smokeless powder being only a few buck less than the Savage I'm wanting.  I just don't see the reason behind it.  I think as consumers, we should demand more bang for our buck.  But instead of that, I've been defending against brand slandering.  I just have different views.  And that is ok, I think.  I've even admitted when I'm wrong.  I've been called an expert, when I didn't claim to be and only presented a logical counter point.  I just wanted to rant about prices.  Sorry, if I'm the only one here pinching pennies.  I have me and two wonderful teenage Princess's to outfit before next deer season.  I'm actually buying a CVA for one of them, maybe both of them.  One is liking the Optima, and the other the Kodiak.  I would rather they pick the Knight M85 or from several of the used T/C in lines we have held and seen, but its not to be.  And I can live with that.  One or either might not want to hunt later on, so I can do a quick turn around on the rifle if need be.  And I don't think it will explode with a 80-90 gr charge of 777.  And I have plenty of time to ship it back to CVA if anything is wrong with them.  And I'm getting them cheap.

Jerry



 




I'll be needing that for squirrels and such.....

I ain't never been lost in my life, been a might confused for a month or so.....

Pilgram, are you sure you know how to skin grizzer bear.....

Don't run little squirrel, you'll only die tired....

Offline kyelkhunter3006

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Re: I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2008, 09:56:44 AM »
With the ILL. gun laws, I can understand why the Wal-mart doesn't want to sell to residents of ILL.  According to the regs I read, you must have the ML sold through an FFL there. Honestly, there shouldn't be any dealers shipping ML to ILL. without going through an FFL in that state.  It's against the ILL. law.  When a dealer ships from one state to another, they are required to follow all laws for the applicable states.  Some dealers don't want to deal with the goofy laws in other states, so they won't sell/ship there, and I don't blame them.

Now, since ILL. has a 24 waiting period on long gun purchases, and you have to have a valid Firearms Onwer Identificaton Card, that Wal-Mart manager is doing the right thing in making you want 24 hours.  I couldn't find any info about ML's being considered long guns or not, or if the law just pertains to centerfire/rimfire breech-loading rifles.  If it gets back to the ATF that they aren't doing it, then they're gonna get roasted for it. 

Honestly, I'm not sure if they can legally sell you the gun anyway, as they are an out of state dealer.  In  my understanding what I read, they should actually be shipping to a dealer in ILL.  It's a gray area, it seems.  Take my word for it, the ATF nails Wal-Mart every chance they can, as Wal-Mart is the biggest gun dealer in the US.  I was a manager for 5 years, so I know from personal experience.

Seems to me that it would probably be cheaper/easier to move across the state line if you're a big gun enthusiast. ;D

Offline lefty red

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Re: I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2008, 11:49:21 AM »
With the ILL. gun laws, I can understand why the Wal Mart doesn't want to sell to residents of ILL.  According to the regs I read, you must have the ML sold through an FFL there. Honestly, there shouldn't be any dealers shipping ML to ILL. without going through an FFL in that state.  It's against the ILL. law.  When a dealer ships from one state to another, they are required to follow all laws for the applicable states.  Some dealers don't want to deal with the goofy laws in other states, so they won't sell/ship there, and I don't blame them.

Now, since ILL. has a 24 waiting period on long gun purchases, and you have to have a valid Firearms Owner Identification Card, that Wal-Mart manager is doing the right thing in making you want 24 hours.  I couldn't find any info about ML's being considered long guns or not, or if the law just pertains to centerfire/rimfire breech-loading rifles.  If it gets back to the ATF that they aren't doing it, then they're gonna get roasted for it. 

Honestly, I'm not sure if they can legally sell you the gun anyway, as they are an out of state dealer.  In  my understanding what I read, they should actually be shipping to a dealer in ILL.  It's a gray area, it seems.  Take my word for it, the ATF nails Wal-Mart every chance they can, as Wal-Mart is the biggest gun dealer in the US.  I was a manager for 5 years, so I know from personal experience.

Seems to me that it would probably be cheaper/easier to move across the state line if you're a big gun enthusiast. ;D

You are reading the firearms laws, and by federal definition, MLs are not firearms.  MLs do not take fixed ready ammo, and therefore are a non fire arm.  Wally World would sell long guns, they made you fill out the yellow paperwork for a firearms.  I called ATF, and the Marion Wal Mart was fined over this.  All it does is make more bogus paperwork for ATF.  I think they called it misuse or fraudulent use of federal documents.

As far as selling firearms to out of staters, federal regulations state the buyer must be processed according to his/her home state.  And this happens only if the state have an agreement.  IL and KY do, at least for longguns only to non LEO buyers.  I've bought my two Nova Tactical from a place in KY.  And I can go in and buy a ML from them and walk out with it and no paper work.

As I was saying about Wally World, it depends on the manager at the time.  I've bought a Traditions Deer Hunter Combo (50 and 32 barrels) for $150!  I made twice that on turning it over and put the money in a better scope for the Black Diamond.  Anyways, I walked right out with it.  I got ALLOT of looks, but the manager knew the correct procedures. I had to wait almost four days for my Black Diamond!  They, WW, said the waiting period started when the purchased was approved by ATF!  This is BS, but that is what caused me to call ATF on them.

Jerry
I'll be needing that for squirrels and such.....

I ain't never been lost in my life, been a might confused for a month or so.....

Pilgram, are you sure you know how to skin grizzer bear.....

Don't run little squirrel, you'll only die tired....

Offline Underclocked

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Re: I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2008, 04:41:26 PM »
Let me explain my response.  First of all... "No Wally World sells ANY rifles, so I can't comment." that is an absolute statement without qualification - the implication would be that I was lying to you.

"Sorry, I got you messed up with another Accura lover on another forum."  and who would that be?  You had already stated you had read all my posts over at MM.   And who might be this "other Accura lover"?

OK, so maybe it was just poor wording of what you meant to say. 

True smokeless has a longer shelf life?

Cost per shot of BH209 is more reasonable that pellets - which a great many people seem to favor.   

The answer to your original question - why do certain models cost so much - is simply supply and demand... because they can get away with charging so much.   I guess that is what allows TC to sponsor about 75% of the outdoor shows you see on TV. 

The Savage is a fine rifle, I'm sure of that even though I've never owned one.  It is heavy, it is prone to rapid barrel heating and must be allowed considerable cooling time to achieve good results, it is difficult to clean if using anything other than smokeless, it requires an extra expendable in the vent liners, and it is a bolt action.   If you look into the world of muzzleloaders, you will see that most bolt actions have fallen from favor.   They seem to be very available at many dealers which implies to me they are not among the favorite choices. 

What REALLY irks me is the cost of items like percussion caps.  There is no logical reason that a simple percussion cap should cost as much (or more) as a .22 LR cartridge.

And I did not not mean to offend your budget situation nor hold CVA in your face, but it seems to me that if pennies matter then a perfectly good, more conventional muzzeloader would be a great choice.  You can buy quite a bit of BH209 or even more TripleSeven and a good supply of projectiles for the $300 difference in price between the Savage and some other great rifles.

Now the NULA, on the other hand ...   ;)


WHUT?

Offline Underclocked

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Re: I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2008, 05:46:45 PM »
ps: check the price of the "Weathershield" composite model Triumph in this flyer http://finfeatherfuroutfitters.com/flyers/flyer_12_08.pdf   Very good folks to deal with...

or http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/803/products_id/33813

WHUT?

Offline lefty red

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Re: I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2008, 09:28:56 PM »
I meant to say that my Wally World doesn't sell ANY firearm or ML.  I was running out the door before I finished the sentence.  Guess I need to ask Greybeard for a grammar checker as well as a spell checker.  Its an incomplete thought.  I have already posted that I am/have bought MLs from other Wally Worlds in both KY and MO.

The other "Accura lover" on MM was from Florida, which you are not.  He is referred to "UC", and I thought/jumped on the first thought that that might be you.  A mistake on my part, just plain old dumb assuming.

All (and yes I meant to say ALL) of the BP I've messed with has rendered itself useless in as little as 12 months to 18 months.  And when I say useless, I mean my rifles don't group worth a damn with it and it just plain messes the barrel up with crude after just one shot.  Hodgen's did the same as well.  And its not just me, but maybe just a So IL thing.  In the BP group that shoots at my range every week, we tried to shoot up our BP with in the season.  Just not worth keeping for the next shoots after the holiday break.  On the other hand, I've had real smokeless (and I mean not BH209 or 777) propellent stay usable for two to three years.  Some reloaders have stated even longer.  Maybe elsewhere BP and subs stay "fresher longer", but not around here.

Well at least we agree on one thing, just about anything is cheaper than pellets!

I understand that buyers will pay more for T/C brand name items than CVA.  But like Andy posted, an entry level Remington centerfire rifle capable of handling ALLOT MORE pressure than any ML and has twice the moving parts is priced at around $400-$500.  A few brands, like Mossberg and Stevens, can be had for $250 on sale!  So why are we paying equal prices for MLs that are not as capable?  And why aren't shooters just plain old POed about it?

I understand your thoughts on the bolt action ML falling out of favor with hunters.  I don't agree with that wording though.  I believe its fallen out of FLAVOR, as in flavor of the month.  And the flavor of the month seems to be break open actions, IMHO.  All the shops/stores I've visited looking at and handled MLs this past month, each salesperson commented on the break open action's quick second shot and easy of cleaning and maintenance.  I think the companies have sold the average ML hunter on that all important quick second shot.  I believe that its a myth.  Now before I get flamed about how your Uncle Jeb can shoot three deer in ten seconds with his side lock Hawken, in my part of the world its one shot only about 95% of the time.  The smoke hinders your view after the first shoot, a 100 yard first shot on a deer is going to be a 500 yard shot on the second shot if the deer is completely missed and it's white flags over the hill, and all ML still require the same steps to reload them.  If its break open or bolt, both actions have to be worked to get to the primer.  Hopefully we have practiced enough to reload quick enough to finish off a wounded deer before it disappears. As far and easier cleaning, I might buy into easier cleaning at the range and in between shots.  But a good propellent that is consumed in the barrel is a greater asset than a quick opening breech.  I find either action a draw on long term maintenance.

And I'm not offended by you nor my situation.  I make pretty good money at my job.  I just live by the rule of you only cry once when you buy quality.  I just don't want to be wishing I had bought something else later on.

Thanks for posting the sites.  I will check into their prices, but I doubt they will ship to IL without me paying extra for a FFL user fee.

Jerry 
I'll be needing that for squirrels and such.....

I ain't never been lost in my life, been a might confused for a month or so.....

Pilgram, are you sure you know how to skin grizzer bear.....

Don't run little squirrel, you'll only die tired....

Offline jenkst

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Re: I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2008, 07:34:00 AM »
Lefty;  You might want to take a look on T/centers web site. They are offering some rebates on their muzzleloaders. Just thougth you might like to know. I don't work for them , just own one.   Jenks

Offline lefty red

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Re: I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2008, 08:38:39 AM »
Lefty;  You might want to take a look on T/centers web site. They are offering some rebates on their muzzleloaders. Just thougth you might like to know. I don't work for them , just own one.   Jenks

Thanks Jenks.
BTW, CVA is affording rebates also.

Jerry
I'll be needing that for squirrels and such.....

I ain't never been lost in my life, been a might confused for a month or so.....

Pilgram, are you sure you know how to skin grizzer bear.....

Don't run little squirrel, you'll only die tired....

Offline Swampman

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Re: I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2008, 09:52:45 AM »
Get a Savage or a Knight.  Life is too short to shoot cheap guns.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline kyelkhunter3006

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Re: I'm I the only one here wonder this?
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2008, 03:34:07 PM »
With the ILL. gun laws, I can understand why the Wal Mart doesn't want to sell to residents of ILL.  According to the regs I read, you must have the ML sold through an FFL there. Honestly, there shouldn't be any dealers shipping ML to ILL. without going through an FFL in that state.  It's against the ILL. law.  When a dealer ships from one state to another, they are required to follow all laws for the applicable states.  Some dealers don't want to deal with the goofy laws in other states, so they won't sell/ship there, and I don't blame them.

Now, since ILL. has a 24 waiting period on long gun purchases, and you have to have a valid Firearms Owner Identification Card, that Wal-Mart manager is doing the right thing in making you want 24 hours.  I couldn't find any info about ML's being considered long guns or not, or if the law just pertains to centerfire/rimfire breech-loading rifles.  If it gets back to the ATF that they aren't doing it, then they're gonna get roasted for it. 

Honestly, I'm not sure if they can legally sell you the gun anyway, as they are an out of state dealer.  In  my understanding what I read, they should actually be shipping to a dealer in ILL.  It's a gray area, it seems.  Take my word for it, the ATF nails Wal-Mart every chance they can, as Wal-Mart is the biggest gun dealer in the US.  I was a manager for 5 years, so I know from personal experience.

Seems to me that it would probably be cheaper/easier to move across the state line if you're a big gun enthusiast. ;D

You are reading the firearms laws, and by federal definition, MLs are not firearms.  MLs do not take fixed ready ammo, and therefore are a non fire arm.  Wally World would sell long guns, they made you fill out the yellow paperwork for a firearms.  I called ATF, and the Marion Wal Mart was fined over this.  All it does is make more bogus paperwork for ATF.  I think they called it misuse or fraudulent use of federal documents.

As far as selling firearms to out of staters, federal regulations state the buyer must be processed according to his/her home state.  And this happens only if the state have an agreement.  IL and KY do, at least for longguns only to non LEO buyers.  I've bought my two Nova Tactical from a place in KY.  And I can go in and buy a ML from them and walk out with it and no paper work.

As I was saying about Wally World, it depends on the manager at the time.  I've bought a Traditions Deer Hunter Combo (50 and 32 barrels) for $150!  I made twice that on turning it over and put the money in a better scope for the Black Diamond.  Anyways, I walked right out with it.  I got ALLOT of looks, but the manager knew the correct procedures. I had to wait almost four days for my Black Diamond!  They, WW, said the waiting period started when the purchased was approved by ATF!  This is BS, but that is what caused me to call ATF on them.

Jerry

Yes I was reading the firearms laws, and I couldn't find any distinctions regarding ML's in them.  By Federal Law, they aren't firearms....but a state/city can put them under that classification if they chose too...NY, NJ, etc have.  States can't be LESS restrictive than Federal mandates, but they CAN be MORE restrictive on anything that they chose to put into law.  For example, in NY a ML has to be shipped to an FFL, period.  If you buy a ML from a dealer in NY, it has to be shipped to a dealer in your state, period.

Any way, this is off topic.....

Back to the guns, I just can't see how anyone thinks that break action is faster to reload than a "regular" gun.  I can guarantee you that I'll reload my Omega faster and be ready to before some gets done breaking the gun open and closed.  That's one reason I bought it.  I (yeah I'm goofy) had someone time me reloading a couple of guns...an Omega, a Wolverine, a Black Diamond, a CVA Mag Bolt, and an Encore....  my best times were with the Omega and the Black Diamond.  Yes, by taking your time and making the first shot good, you don't have to worry about a fast reload.  BUT, hey, the world isn't perfect, so I like to be prepared for a worst case scenario.

My advice is buy what you want/can, and have fun with it.  That's what matters the most.  The newer CVA and Tradition guns for the most part aren't bad at all.  My biggest gripe is the triggers on them, other than that, they're good to go.  I wouldn't use 150gr of powder and a 400gr slug in them, but the normal deer hunting loads should all work fine.