Author Topic: .500 Terminal Performance or lack of (Read 1044 times)

Smoke Wagon · « **on:** December 10, 2008, 06:46:34 AM »

I have a Handi .500, I just starting reloading for it and have found 37gr of lil gun to be accurate with a 350 Hornady XTP. Anyway I went varmint hunting last night with a fire and light permit for our varmints "hogs" in an orange grove. I got a shot at about a 140 lb hog at 65 yards. Lined up pulled the trigger hit him in the front shoulder, as confirmed by the two spotters. He let out a squell and went about 50 yards and laid down in an unaccesssable thick area. Not very impressive. I was wanting to know what I need to do to make terminal performance better. cast bullets, push them harder etc. ya'll's thoughts would be great and greatly appreciated.

superdown · « **Reply #1 on:** December 10, 2008, 06:53:32 AM »

;)sounds like you need a heavier bullet for better sectional density. I would try a hard cast I don't think you need to worry about lots of speed unless it brings you accuracy.

Smoke Wagon · « **Reply #2 on:** December 10, 2008, 07:32:27 AM »

That was my train of thought. was going to try and find some heavier cast and try it. I'm just learning to reload so I'm taking it slow.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** December 10, 2008, 07:50:23 AM »

No offense, but if you have a good accurate load, you may consider working on bullet placement, or it was just a bad hit, fatal, but just not soon enough, stuff happens. $:-\$ I don't think I'd judge the effectiveness on one unconfirmed shot tho. I don't remember what velocity I got with 37gr Lil'gun, 36gr is the start load tho, I got 2150 with 42grs, Hodgdon shows a working velocity in the 10" barrel as 1700-1900fps, so bullet performace should have been good. You apparently didn't recover it, so it's really hard telling where it was actually hit. But there's no doubt that hard cast bullets are king in the penetration dept, the 440gr CP shot good in mine, CW uses Ranger Rick's 440gr hard cast with good accuracy, I expect he'll share that with ya.

Good luck,

Tim

http://www.texasboars.com/anatomy.html

Smoke Wagon · « **Reply #4 on:** December 10, 2008, 08:59:17 AM »

I agree that shot placement is unconfirmed, but believe it was good. I've killed a lot of hogs over the years with mainly a 243. and 90% have been bang flop. Hopefully it was a bad shot, or maybe I have unrealistic expectations. Either way I will get some cast bullets, and continue to try loads to see if I can get good accuracy with a little more speed. Thanks for the help. What is good source for cast bullets and is there anything I need to look for ie. Hardness I'll just be using them for shooting hogs, maybe the occasional deer

jmayton · « **Reply #5 on:** December 10, 2008, 09:09:36 AM »

I wouldn't discount your load so quickly. I've killed about 35 hogs this year...mostly with a .223, but also with a 30-06 and a 7.62X54R and I can say that no where near 90% of them were bang-flops. Hogs are tough (not indestructible as some will say) and tend to run even when hit with a good shot. A friend was out with me and shot a good size boar (175-200lbs) with his Marlin 44mag and dropped the hog. We chased after a couple of others and then came back to his and it was gone. I took another friend out this week and he shot a 200lb sow with his .243 in the should and she ran about 50yds. Just because it ran doesn't mean it wasn't a good shot. A 1/2 difference in placement on a head shot makes a huge difference in killing potential. A few inches on the shoulder or upper body will do the same. I like neck shots, but I don't always get them. They have proven to me to be the most effective. I didn't think my .223 was enough, but after 50+ hogs, it's proven itself. Give that .500 another chance....I bet it'll make you happy.

Lazermule · « **Reply #6 on:** December 10, 2008, 09:32:56 AM »

Quote from: Smoke Wagon on December 10, 2008, 06:46:34 AM

I have a Handi .500, I just starting reloading for it and have found 37gr of lil gun to be accurate with a 350 Hornady XTP. Anyway I went varmint hunting last night with a fire and light permit for our varmints "hogs" in an orange grove. I got a shot at about a 140 lb hog at 65 yards. Lined up pulled the trigger hit him in the front shoulder, as confirmed by the two spotters. He let out a squell and went about 50 yards and laid down in an unaccesssable thick area. Not very impressive. I was wanting to know what I need to do to make terminal performance better. cast bullets, push them harder etc. ya'll's thoughts would be great and greatly appreciated.

Now when you say it went into an non-accessible thick area, was it due to it being private property? Gator pit? Refuge? Just curious...

45carbine · « **Reply #7 on:** December 10, 2008, 09:39:10 AM »

Just my thoughts

If you had broken both shoulders the pig should not have moved. If you punched a 50 cal hole through the lungs then the brain and heart will still be working. Pehaps well enough for a 50yd dash? Small centrefire bullets may produce a bang flop with lung shots as all the energy is transfered in shock, HOWEVER these same loads may be unrelaible for shoulder shots on large pigs.

I would have thought your 50 cal would have been more than adequate and would continue using it some more with that load and see if it is expanding to quickly or cutting straight through. A hard cast will cut straight through, so a lung shot may produce the same results.

Smoke Wagon · « **Reply #8 on:** December 10, 2008, 10:06:08 AM »

I'm not giving up on it, I just think I need to look into it more. Where I kill hogs it's more like a shooting gallery than anything else. 95% of shots are within 100 ydsand shot off a rest, usely a pick up or bi pod. This is the first I shot at night, usually hunt first thing in morning. When I use the 243 I also neck or head shoot them, I wanted to see how that big bullet would do in the shoulder. The more I think about it , I think my expections were a little high, not saying it won't won't meet them, It just might take more work. Well one things for sure I'll have plenty more chances.

jmayton · « **Reply #9 on:** December 10, 2008, 11:19:40 AM »

Best of luck and I hope you find something that works for you.

chutesnreloads · « **Reply #10 on:** December 10, 2008, 12:28:53 PM »

I agree with the above posts.Experience has taught me to NEVER expect a bang flop with a body shot.It happens some but those are the exceptions.Gosh,I've shot squirrells that you could see daylight through run 10 feet up the tree before falling.Can you imagine what you'd have to shoot to make a comparible size hole in a hog as a .22 hole in a squirrel?Then again...if there's THAT many hogs....maybe a cannon IS the way to hunt.

dk17hmr · « **Reply #11 on:** December 10, 2008, 12:43:08 PM »

Quote from: Smoke Wagon on December 10, 2008, 06:46:34 AM

went about 50 yards and laid down in an unaccesssable thick area.

I have never hunted hogs, or seen a wild hog for that matter. But if a 140 pound hog can get into somewhere I think I could.

Bigger isnt always better though, we had a car in front of our backstop this summer, we shot it for a week. I hit it square in the doors with a 440gr hard cast from my 500 S&W, it went through the first door and stopped in the second door, the range was about 35 yards and the bullet chronographed at 1750fps. I also hit it with a 300gr Hard Cast out of my Ruger 454 Casull, about 2" from where I hit it with the 500. The 454 bunched through both doors and exited the car, that bullet is only going 1575fps.

Now think about this the lenght of the 440gr .500" bullet compared to the diameter, the 300gr .452" almost the same length as the 440gr but much skinner. Just food for thought.

I have never had a bang flop on a big game animal, unless the brain or spine were hit. With a Heart/lung shot critters run sometimes for a while.

michaelt454 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 10, 2008, 12:55:53 PM »

Trust me, that .500 is quite possibly THE most effective cartridge you can use for that type of hunting. ANY bullet out of that gun is more than adequate for any hog. We have a lot of hogs in Texas and every time you shoot one you get a different result, even heart shots that completely destroy the heart, can still leave them with enough blood pressure to make a dash. But that .500 has a greater chance of cutting vital arteries, breaking bones and penetrating to vitals and just generally leaving any animal in no shape to go too far after being hit. The point is no caliber or cartridge is going to be effective 100% of the time and there is nothing wrong with your bullet or load, just a little bad luck, stick with it, you'll see. Just my 2.

michaelt454 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 10, 2008, 01:05:17 PM »

I have always been more satisfied with the terminal performance of the jacketed expanding type bullets than the hardcast, but that is just me, half of the people on this forum will tell you just the opposite. My logic is that I don't really need to shoot all the way through the animal to kill it, I just need enough penetration to get to the vitals at any possible entrance angle. That is why I like the barnes bullets so much for hunting with all calibers.

Slufoot · « **Reply #14 on:** December 10, 2008, 02:38:21 PM »

Quote from: michaelt454 on December 10, 2008, 12:55:53 PM

there is nothing wrong with your bullet or load, just a little bad luck, stick with it, you'll see. Just my 2.

I agree, don't make judgement on your load from an animal you didn't recover.
I am also wondering why you couldn't go where the hog went?

Slufoot

Default · « **Reply #15 on:** December 10, 2008, 02:56:01 PM »

Heya Smoke ,

I love hunting with my golden boy Uberti lever in 45 LC ( i know a far cry from the 500 But ! ) i have used it exclusively on hogs from start to now ... Second to last pig trip i took two 100 to 120 pound pigs ... But hadnt found the bigger one i wanted till the next day ,Would guess um to be in the 200 + range ... I found the best accuracy out of that rifle and matching pistol to be Speers 250 gr gold dot (AKA The Flying Ashtray) Well anywho 40 to 45 yrds Bang !! Flop !! And then got up and ran the blood trail dry ..Two hours crawling through god knows what just to lose the blood all together.....Only made one hole in the pigs entrance side and I know this was a shoulder hit ... Point is you are a hog hunter too and like was said these things are tough in general.. Hell i have had animals act all different ways hit by an aria of different rounds ... What i concluded from that little experience is that the hollow points are dandy for alot of things ,But for hogs i now load the old 45 lc hotter ( started reloading that caliber since that hunt) and use the Soft points ... Expansion, velocity and penetration ...The softies have always severed me well on game with a number of other pistol caliber rifles ..Give that Dog of yours another day to shine Smoke , just feed him a different diet .

Just my thoughts on it Smoke ,

Default

Side note: Michael the Hogs are best Tracked bloodied on both sides ...They already dont bleed real well , Thats why the neck shot is a real good choice on hogs if you can get it ...
Way I explain hog hunting to friends that havent got one is pretty much like this " 1" to 2" of thick calised hide ,Think of it like living Raw Hide... 4" to 6"+ of strong thick muscle with good shoulder bone in there for giggles and then ribs to top it all off, Thats just to get to the boiler room ...Take a guess whats on the exit side " This being for the big ones of course

45-70.gov · « **Reply #16 on:** December 10, 2008, 03:13:47 PM »

smoke wagon

i have a mold for 440 grain cast for the 500

i can bring you some if i can put a few threw some pigs for you

i am in jax fla i may even mount a lazer and light on your gun if i get a nice pig

tim

Smoke Wagon · « **Reply #17 on:** December 10, 2008, 07:49:58 PM »

.45-70, if I could take you I would be more than happy too. My boss knows the landowner, and he's not real happy that were out there,but allows it to control the hog damage. Everybody is so liability worried. As for the hog being unaccessible... it ran into South Florida Water Management property completely posted no tresspassing, and I was not going to take a chance. Game and fish already knew we were out there because you have to call in your fire and light permit number and tell them when where who and how long your going to be out there. I really would have liked to recover the hog to see bullet performance, but the risk was not worth it.
On a side note 45-70 if you hunt public land or are willing try for the Ft. Drum Quota hunt it's at the Osceola and Okeechobee county line and I know several people that have hunted it. Lots of big hogs.

maglvr44 · « **Reply #18 on:** December 10, 2008, 11:11:20 PM »

Quote from: Smoke Wagon on December 10, 2008, 06:46:34 AM

I have a Handi .500, I just starting reloading for it and have found 37gr of lil gun to be accurate with a 350 Hornady XTP. Anyway I went varmint hunting last night with a fire and light permit for our varmints "hogs" in an orange grove. I got a shot at about a 140 lb hog at 65 yards. Lined up pulled the trigger hit him in the front shoulder, as confirmed by the two spotters. He let out a squell and went about 50 yards and laid down in an unaccesssable thick area. Not very impressive. I was wanting to know what I need to do to make terminal performance better. cast bullets, push them harder etc. ya'll's thoughts would be great and greatly appreciated.

Forget velocity, get the heaviest , hard-cast, widest meplat, bullet you can drive at 1000-1200fps.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #19 on:** December 11, 2008, 02:57:28 AM »

I have been out with DSL problems... I THINK I am back now...

Quick and others that said don't be so quick to judge... Jebus its ONE shot on ONE animal!!

I do like the 440WFGC bullet from Ranger Rick and it is the best for consistant accuracy from my gun. But that XTP if you have good accuracy should be a good one, at least all the XTP's I have shot performed very well.

I haven't shot near as many hogs as Jmayton, but of the ones I have I have seen but one bangflop on a pig. That was a brain shot my buddie did. I wasn't there but he video it. My 300gr with WW296 from a 45Colt Bisley.

From the sounds of your bullet placement, it was a heart lung shot, that will be a quick kill but rarely an instantaneous one. You have to hit bone for the electrifying bang flop. I like high shoulder or base of the neck if the game is close.

My 2cents of the the car penetration, its apples to oranges and to my mind proves nothing. Penetration, as long as its adequate, doesn't kill. (It is GREATLY prefered for good blood trail.)Shooting a boar, thru the lungs, with a 460 Weatherby mag and solids, (Insert any 45 caliber with buku penetration) or a 45 auto shooting 230 ball will both provide IDENTICLE results. BOTH will penetrate completely thru the animal. Both will kill the hog. Yet even though the 460 would likely do this to 4-5 hogs all lined up and the 45 auto likely wouldn't exit the second one. they both killed the hog in the same amount of time and distance. My point is, remove bullet diameter and expansion and a bullets lethality of same caliber is near identical. (as long as adequate penetration is achieved.) the 500 is 50caliber, the 45 is smaller and needs to expand to disrupt the same amount of tissue. The more tissue that's disrupted, the more vascular damage results. All equals a larger wound channel and faster kills.

I think your load is fine, shoot for bones and you will see faster incapacitation.

CW

jmayton · « **Reply #20 on:** December 11, 2008, 04:22:08 AM »

You'll notice that I'm on the other end of the spectrum as far as caliber goes. yeah, I'd love to get a 45-70, or .500 or something big like that, but I'm having too much fun with my AR and my Handi both in .223. I'd have to say that bullet construction makes a big difference on hogs. I made the mistake one time of shooting a small one with a varmint bullet and I got to see what an entrance AND exit wound look like on the same side...bullet just exploded back in the direction it went in. Not fair to the pig. I've got a load for both rifles that uses 55gr Sierra Gamekings and they've accounted for lots of hogs and few deer. I like the controlled expansion bullet for what I use them for. I think you need expansion on hogs no matter what cailber you shoot. Yeah, a .50 hole is larger than a .22, but I've left 1" exit wounds on pigs and if your .50 doesn't expand, then the .22 is doing more damage.

Just some more thoughts. I've never shot one with a caliber larger than .30, so I can't say about .50 cal expanding bullets. Again, sometimes it's just bad luck. I shot a small one I needed for our Thanksgiving bbq at 150 yds. The bullet entered low on the rib cage (without hitting a rib) turned up and slightly back and exited above the opposite shoulder tearing up about 3 inches of backstrap. The pig went down kicked a couple of times, then expired. I have no idea why the bullet took that path or why a .223 could even have enough energy to exit at that range. But that's what I saw. Pigs don't seem to know much about the laws of physics.

xhare · « **Reply #21 on:** December 11, 2008, 04:36:31 AM »

I killed an 8 pt buck this year with the LeverEvolution 45-70 load (from my Knight KP1). I had a front quatering shot. The bullet hit the right shoulder, went through the heart and both lungs and exited the left rear rib cage. That dear still ran about 50 yards before falling over. I should add that it ran using only 3 of its legs.

I have no complaints about the performance of this load even though the deer ran a bit. The hit was definitley fatal as the deer fell over before I could reload.

Smoke Wagon · « **Reply #22 on:** December 12, 2008, 11:13:43 PM »

Thanks to all for sharing your thoughts and experience. I'm going to keep trying and gind out what works best. I bought the handi a little over a year ago and fell in love with it. I have the 500 barrel and a hornet barrel. I plan on getting another barrel after the first of the year. But until I send it off I'm going to try as many loads different loads as possible, who knows maybe I'll find a super accurate super big super heavy load that will drop'em, gut'em and cut and wrap'em. That away I can shoot'em and go pick up the packages for the freezer. It is a Magnum and we all know that based on the in vogue thought process you have to have a magnum to even think about shooting anything, LOL.