Opinions please!

[Litefoot]

I recently traded for a Marlin 1894 .44 in trade to have as a companion with my 629 MG. I don't reload, but plan to start. I have also become interested in selling my 1895 45-70 and picking up a 444P. I love levers and the 444 Marlin seems to have the best combo of power and flat trajectory out there. I want to hunt elk with it out here in the West. In addition to all this, I can use the same bullets as the other '94 and the 629. I'm not in a position to keep both a GG and a 444 at this time. Question: Is my logic okay here, or will I, after I start reloading, wish I had kept the .45-70 even though it doesn't share bullets with the other two? Thank ye one and all.

[DennisB]

Keep the .45-70!! (and trade the S&W for a .45 Colt)

[KN]

45/70 and 45 colt are not the same diameter bullet. 45/70 is .458 and the colt is .452". If it were me and I wanted to keep my bullets interchangable I would go for the 444P.   KN

[DennisB]

Yep, and the case length is different, too. :-)  My thought was, for elk, I'd rather have my .45-70.  Some really good .429 bullets are available to reload both the .44 mag and .444 (including the XTP which I intend to use in my RSB this fall.  

Now we'll get some discussion going, huh?!  

[Mikey]

Litefoot:  Get the 444P.  Although you can use the same diameter bullet in both cartridges, which you can not do with the 45-70 and 45 Colt, the bullets for the 444 are designed for heavier loads, faster velocities and deeper penetration than the 44 mag bullets.  You can shoot them in your 44 mag but, the 300 grain xtp for the 44 mag might not hold together as well or penetrate as deeply as the 300 grain bullet for the 444.  Of the 44 caliber bullets, there are those plainly marked for pistol, because the skin on those is thin enough for the bullet to perform at pistol velocities.  

The exceptions here are, of course, the flatnosed gaschecked cast bullets.  Some of those in the 300 grain range serve both the 44 mag and the 444.  Dropping down in weight a bit, the 265 grain Hornday bullet for the 444 is an excellent choice for large animals like Elk.  One of our posters took a large cow Elk at 80 yds with the factory 240 grain 444 and others have done the same.  I like playing with the 444 with heavy loads.  Harpy makes his own 444 bullets in weights all the way out to 410 grains and they look absolutely gorgeous (his bullets, that is).  I would like to approach him to see if he would be willing to sell some.

But, the point of all this is that you will not go wrong with the 444.  You can't argue with the myth and history of a century old cartridge, and especially one that continues to perform as the 45-70 does but, the 444 will do the job on anything on the north American continent with the loadings offered from different manufacturers.  And, if you like to handload, you can really brew up some incredibly accurate loads for that caliber.  I would recommend you touch base with Harpy on this.  Another fellow to touch base with on this is.......CRS is setting in......he is the one who casts out his own gas checked 335 grain loads - is it Lloyd (?) and throws them out with incredible accuracy.  

I would ask some of the other 444 afficionados to jump in here and give you the benefit of their advice.  Hope this helps.  Mikey.

ps:  although I have that one long barreled Winnie, I just put a down payment on a Timber Carbine.  But to be honest, I'm looking at that one as though it is going to kick my butt, even if it is ported, but man, what a sweetie she is.

[Litefoot]

Thanks everyone for our views. Mikey, thanks for the details. Howz the weather holding up down there. Sounds pretty bad from out here. Howzcome you decided on a Winnie instead of the Marlin 444P? Jes curious. Your 26" Win with the extended mag tube sounds like a dream. Custom barrel and what, 9 or 10 rounds of .444. Wow!

[Cabin4]

I may be to late on this but my vote is to keep the 45-70. This cartridge is far more capable and versatile than the 444.

If your going to get into reloading, I would not so much focus on being able to reload using the same bullets in your handgun and rifle. I'm not sure I understand this as a reason.

The fact that you want to use the same bullets in the 444 and the 44 is enough reason for me that you should reconsider this strategy. Using bullets designed for revolver velocities and pushing them to the velocity that the 444 can do, is an idea I don't care for. And the reverse is also true.


BP

[jamie]

In reality you are only talking a few bucks different to keep the 45-70.  KEEP the 45-70.

[Questor]

I'd forget about a coincidental relationship between bullets of two different guns.  Dies are cheap and bullets for two similar cartridges like that will cost the same.  You'll need different powders in any event.

[Gatofeo]

Keep the .45-70.
Ammunition, cases and bullets for the .45-70 are more readily available than those made for the .444 Marlin.
Also, the .444 uses lighter bullets than the .45-70. To some, that makes a difference.
The .444 was introduced in the early 1960s when the buzzword was "Magnum" and everyone was impressed by velocities. To get such a high velocity in this new round, the cartridge was introduced with the same 240 gr. bullet as found in the .44 Magnum revolver.
The higher velocity appealed to buyers of that time because it looked impressive.
Either the .444 or .45-70 are close-range cartridges. Shooting with a scope should be limited to certainly no more than 200 yards. With iron sights, 150 yards is stretching it.
Forget the .444 Marlin. To my notion, it's always been a poor imposter of the .45-70.
If you reload, you can make the .45-70 do anything the .444 Marlin does. And if you don't reload, you should. Reloading will not only save you money but will increase your knowledge of the sport.
Forget the .444 Marlin. Stay with the .45-70 and, if you MUST have higher velocities (though it's not necessary in the game fields), then reload for it.

[Litefoot]

I appreciate all the info thus far and I have duly noted that 44 Mag bullets and .444 bullets are constructed differently because of the higher pressures of the .444. Now, I will grant that I am the neophyte around these parts, but if do start reloading, the high pressures won't be an issue since most of my reloads will be relatively low pressure target loads and not full-house hunting loads. Therefore, in my un-educated thinking, the bullets WILL be interchangeable most of the time. Right? Or am I assuming too much here.

[RKBAHolsters]

I'm with the guys in the 45/70 crowd.  Keep it and start reloading.

I reload 45/70 for about $7/20 rounds.  These are Remington 405gr bullets at 1650fps...

For a minimal investment of $70 you can buy 500 Remington 405gr soft point bullets, that should be enough for a few years.

Now if you were talking getting a 1894 in .44mag to go with your Mountain Gun that may make sense, but you're not.

Below is my 1895GS and S&W 629 .44mag Mountain Gun.  Quite the pair.

Steve

[Cabin4]

Its so hard for me to understand how anyone can compare the 444 to the 45-70 in the area of ballistics or versatility. I think the pure ballistic paper numbers on the 444 are extremlly misleading when compared the the 45-70.

The 444 is essentially a 44 ultra magnum. Not that this is a bad thing. It just simply does not rise to the level of the 45-70. The simple fact that the 444 allows one to use revolver bulletts and push them to rifle velocities should be the first indication that looking deeper at the true ballistics  performance is needed. I think there is a lot of confusion out there becasue we often find that these rounds can be found in similar rifle plateforms, bullet diameter and case lenth are similar.

If ones only aim is deer, black bear and other similar game of course this round will do well. However, its effective range is limited far less than the 45-70. If one has moose, elk and big bears on thier mind. The 444 is just not up to par with the 45-70. On large bears, the 444 is not much of an advantage over a 44mag.

I'm not knocking the 444. I don't own one but I would just because ! It is certainly an advantage over the 30-30 or other very similar rounds.

By the way 480Ruger, that pair does looks great !!!. I have the Guide Gun also but bought it before Marlin offered it in SS.

To the guy that made the original post. Good luck in your decision process.


BP

[Chuck from arkansaw]

I shoot a .44 mag. with the Lee 310 gr gascheck with the big meplat.  It would work great in both if cast from pure wheel weight.  I get almost 1400 fps from my Redhawk with no leading.  It would be a great bullet in the .444

[Mikey]

Cabin4 and Litefoot:

Litefoot:  I selected the Winnie because I like the style of a Winchester lever action.  I had one of the early Marlin 444s, with the 24" barrel and the Monte Carlo stock but the micro-groove barrel gave me fits trying to shoot cast bullets.  That was in the early 70s and the new loads and research on the Triple 4 did not exist at that time.  Now, however, it's a much different story and that is what has led me to now own 3 Winchester 444s.  

Cabin4:  Sorry old buddy but I disagree.  You can toss a 410 grain jacketed or gas checked bullet from the 444 at over 2K'/sec and one of the other posters, Harpy, reports incredible accuracy at LONG ranges, well beyond the range limitations you assign to the 444.  At the 100 yd line Harpy, his bullets and his rifles attain minute of angle accuracy.  Also, Llyod Smale casts his own 335 grain gas check bullets for his 444 and reports the kind of accuracy that, along with Harpy's results constitute 'myth busters'.  

The 444 is a proprietary cartridge that has taken the African Big Five from a Contender pistol.  Cor-Bon advertises this in marketting its 265 and 300 grain 444 loads.  Buffalo Bore and Garret also make some very heavy hitting 444 loads and either of those 3 will take anything on the North American Continent.  

To learn more about the accuracy and power capabilities of the Triple 4, I suggest you visit the Beartooth Bullets web site and read about the research, bullet design, accuracy, velocity they have attained with their bullets.    Mikey.

[Cabin4]

Mickey,

I don't disagree with anything your now concluding. My point was based on your original posts when you stated you wanted to use the same bullets in the reloading process in both your 44mag revolver and your 444 marlin.

Under these circumstances, all one is doing is increasing the speed of the 44mag revolver bullet to the capability of the 444 marlin speed. Again, this is a concept that provides little advantage other than maybe longer distance shot capability. It does little to provide additional killing capability. The sectional density issue it what has plauged the 444 marlin historically and thus its limitations/acceptance as a real big game rifle cartridge. Again, the 444 simply utilized 44mag bullets which are designed for much lower velocities than the 444 is capable of.

If their are bullets now available that are specifically designed for the velocities the 444 can do, and that have over come the sectional density issue, then those should be a great advantage over the 44mag bullet performance in the 444 cartridge.

Anyway, the 444 still cannot reach the versatility and power levels of the 45-70 and that is the other point that was being debated.

Good luck

[Mikey]

Cabin4:  You are absolutely correct about my earlier posts when I spoke to using 44 mag bullets in the 444.  I still do that on occassion but only for range foder or varmit shooting, nothing more serious than that.

To respond the last part of your post: yes there are now bullets avialable for the 444 that are designed for the velocity of that cartridge, and they are some whompers.  It seems that two very well thought of bullet weights for that cartridge are in the 300 and 335 grain weight.  There are also bullets available in 350 grain weight, 375 (43 Spanish sized from 438 to 430), a 400 grain and a 410 grain bullet.  With the 444 with any rifling twist, you are limited to either jacketted or gas check bullets to attain top accuracy, I believe.

Years ago, all you could get for the 444 was the 240 grain jacketted bullet made specifically for that caliber - the box would say 'For Rifle Only' or the 265 grain Hornaday that was made specifically for the 444.  Now however with the advent of the heavier bullet weights I do believe the 444 has demonstrated both it's versatility as well as a power capability that meets or exceeds the 45-70.

Look at it this way - for whatever you would hunt on the North American continent, the 444 will definately do the job.  You can load 180 grain pistol bullets at close 3K'/sec, 200 grainers near the same, and on down the line.  

It is interesting to note, in addition, that the 45-70 has been around for 130 years, but the 444 has been with us only for 40 some odd years, I think.  Given the same amount of time I would hope that versatility would no longer be an issue on the 43 caliber decision, as the concern about the power of the 444 is no longer a question.  

I know you may not be convinced and I would not enjoin you to switch calibers but please, give that Beartooth Bullets web-site a look to see what they have to say about accuracy and power in the 444 - it's an eye opener.  Mikey.

[marlinman93]

I really wouldn't let the decision on which to keep be based on sharing a common bullet. If they shared a common cartridge, it might be different. it's not like you'll buy a box of 10,000 bullets and never buy any more. Bullets come in boxes of 50-100 most the time, so having two different boxes of bullets isn't a big deal.

[Dragoon]

I have seen posters state at least twice now that Garrett Cartridges loads for the .444 Marlin. I believe this is incorrect. I have ordered from Garrett Cartridges several times in the past (I also just checked their site) and I have never seen them mention the .444 Marlin. Their main products are the 45-70 and the .44 Magnum.

The Garrett Hammerhead Cartridge, which is a 45-70 weighing in at 540 gns., has been used to take the African big 6 as is detailed at their site and in the below quote taken from that site:

In the summer of 2002, Vince Lupo of Tampa, Florida successfully completed his quest to take the African Big Six with his Marlin 45-70 lever-gun and Garrett Hammerhead Ammo. Vince's efforts spanned a 13-month period, a remarkably short time given the broken ankle Vince suffered during his safaris. From the 220-pound charging leopard Vince stopped point-blank, to his remarkable SCI Gold Medal white rhino and huge elephant, Vince's safaris have demonstrated an exceptional combination of tenacity and outstanding marksmanship. Vince Lupo is the first to take the African Big Five or Six with the 45-70 lever-gun.

Another interesting quote about the 45-70 Hammerhead:

Our 540-grainer provides impact-effect against heavy game that simply is all out of proportion to its apparent ballistics. It will shoot lengthwise through bison and Cape buffalo, and is a super hammer for stopping determined grizzlies. It is the bluntest hard-cast bullet available for the caliber. It is also quite accurate, consistently providing 1.2 MOA.

I caution though that these things kick!  :-D

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/default.asp

I don't have anything against the .444 Marlin but the 45-70 packs one heck of a punch if loaded for modern guns. I actually had always wanted to get a Marlin 444P to be a matching partner to my Marlin 1895G but they apparently quit making that model  :cry:

I like yourself like to make matching sets with my guns  :grin:

I have a Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 that I pair with my Taurus Raging Bull in .454 Casull (I know their diff. calibers but I can pretend)

And I have a Taurus Raging Bull in .44 Mag that as stated above I want to match with a Marlin 444P (If I ever find one when I have the money)

I too have thought about trying to keep the same caliber for reloading purposes but I have aquired so many guns that it is pointless to even try anymore  :-D