Author Topic: 35 Whelen Questions  (Read 3406 times)

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Offline Bart Solo

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35 Whelen Questions
« on: December 21, 2008, 04:13:56 AM »
I have been thinking about rebarreling a 30-06 in 35 Whelen but the lowest cost route is to buy one of the manufacturers offerings. Ruger and Remington manufacture turn bolts in 35 Whelen.   (Actually I am not sure Remington is producing CDL's in 35 Whelen this year, but there are still plenty available from their last production run.)  The Ruger Hawkeye is a little less expensive than the Remington 700 CDL.  If I decide to buy a new I have been leaning to the Remington.

I have been trying to gather as much information as I can, and have come across a disturbing tidbit.  According to somebody who bought a CDL, Remington has built the 35 Whelen on a rifle and action designed for the 300 RUM.  The RUM cartridge is longer than the 30-06 or the Whelen and according to the guy I read the 35 Whelen cartridges rattle around in the magazine.  He goes on to report that the Remington's barrel has a twist that works best with 200 grain bullets,  and that because the action was intended for a 300 RUM it is "physically impossible to seat the bullet anywhere near the lands" so the bullet travels an excessive distance before entering the rifling.  All in all according to the guy I read it is hard to achieve accuracy in the Remington particularly when using bullets heavier than 200 grains.   

Of course the 35 Whelen's dimensions are identical to the 30-06 except it is necked up to 35 caliber.  I don't know what to make of the notion that Remington has standardized all of its long action rifles on the 300 RUM. I am not too concerned about the magazine issue, but the action is a different story.  Has anybody else heard the comment that the Remington 700 long action is really longer than the 30-06 standard?   

First question for all of you who have shot the Remington 700 CDL in 35 Whelen.  How is the accuracy when shooting bullets heavier than 200 grains? Second question, does anybody know if the Hawkeye is accurate?   

Offline Dave in WV

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Re: 35 Whelen Questions
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2008, 05:39:28 AM »
I can't say whether the magazine is too long on a M700 CDL for the 35 Whelen or not. The twist rate on most factory rifles is too slow for bullets heavier than 250gr. You may get decent accuracy or not with the heavier bullets (over 250gr).

I know of one gun writer that has used a company that re-bores barrels with great results. You can probably get the twist rate you want/need for bullets over 250gr. If I wanted a Whelen I'd go with the re-bored option or a new barrel with a faster twist rate.

Here's the link for the barrel re-bore company.
http://www.cutrifle.com/
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Offline targshooter

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Re: 35 Whelen Questions
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2008, 06:03:25 AM »
Ron,
I can offer the following:
1] I used to reload 250 grain .35 Whelen cartridges for a friend with a Model 7600. They were quite accurate in that rifle. If the rate of twists in the barrels are the same, should be no problem. This was up to ten years ago.
2] Look  up the dimensions of the Remington long action prior to all the RUM madness and then go to the store and compare. My De Haas book does not indicate directly the receiver dimensions for the 700. However, he claims the 700 long action dimensions were identical to the 721 dimensions; and he states the length of the 721 receiver to be 8.75 inches.

Offline Mckie Hollow

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Re: 35 Whelen Questions
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2008, 06:36:11 AM »
I've read that the 1:16 twist that Rem. uses for the 35 Whelen is not good for the heavier bullets. I've also read posts of the owners of these guns have no problem with that twist and their 35's shoot as good as any guns they have. I bought a 700 CDL 35 Whelen because of the price and the raveing satisfaction of the people who have bought one. I have not worked with it yet. I have also loaded 250 gr. Speers in My 1:16 twist Model 7 350 mag., and these shoot very well @ 100 yds.. If one was to have a custom made in the 35 Whelen, The Smith could possibly suggest a 1:14 or 1:12 twist. Look up the major barrel makers, and I think that They show a quicker twist in the 35 Whelen, also.

Offline Hank08

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Re: 35 Whelen Questions
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2008, 10:19:18 AM »
Ron,  Remington was making 35 whelen for many yrs. before the Ultra was even thought of.  The 700 long actions are all full length mag length, .375 H&H length
same as the 721 was. Cartridges don't roll around in the magazine.  I have a Ruger
(not sure of the twist) but it shoots 250s fine.  I know several people who have Remingtons and all report that they shoot 250s fine.  The fact that it was made on a long action would have nothing to do with how close you were to the rifling.. If the action was too short then that would.  I also have a .35 Whelen made on a M98 action
(not sure of the twist, I'll have to measure it now) it shoots 250s fine.  I also have a .358 N. mag with a 12" twist that shoots 250s extraordinarily well.  If your having one made I'd suggest the 12" but don't think you'll have any problems with the 16".
Hank08

Offline Bart Solo

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Re: 35 Whelen Questions
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2008, 10:31:31 AM »
ER Shaw uses a 1:14 twist in it's 35 Whelen barrels.  So apparently they agree that 1:16 might be a little too slow. 

Offline nomosendero

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Re: 35 Whelen Questions
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2008, 03:15:32 PM »
Ron,  Remington was making 35 whelen for many yrs. before the Ultra was even thought of.  The 700 long actions are all full length mag length, .375 H&H length
same as the 721 was. Cartridges don't roll around in the magazine.  I have a Ruger
(not sure of the twist) but it shoots 250s fine.  I know several people who have Remingtons and all report that they shoot 250s fine.  The fact that it was made on a long action would have nothing to do with how close you were to the rifling.. If the action was too short then that would.  I also have a .35 Whelen made on a M98 action
(not sure of the twist, I'll have to measure it now) it shoots 250s fine.  I also have a .358 N. mag with a 12" twist that shoots 250s extraordinarily well.  If your having one made I'd suggest the 12" but don't think you'll have any problems with the 16".
Hank08

Hank is correct. The long action Rem is & has been 375 H&H length, nothing to do with Rum madness, whatever that may be, I don't know what that means. The Rum rounds are used in 375 length actions. The rounds will not roll around & be loose, if you buy a Whelen, the follower & action rails are set up for the 30-06 family cases. The chamber & throat have nothing to do with action length at all. I have a 308 with a short action & a long throat & that's when it gets frustrating. As far as why Rem uses the 375 action length for all long action rounds, it saves costs, period.
Some, as the Win, made mag. changes, some with stops & some like Ruger used what they call a std action, which is not the way I would go with a 300WM for example, because there is no room to seat the bullet out. That's what I like about the Rem action, I can & do seat a bullet way out there when the throat will allow, which is often. After years of use the 375 length action has not caused the first problem for me in any conceivable way. 
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Offline KLM358

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Re: 35 Whelen Questions
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2008, 11:11:02 AM »
Ron, if you have a extra 30-06 already you could just have it rebored to the whelen. I sent a Mod. 70 S/S Classic to Dan Patterson(SPL) in Prescott AR and had him do a rebore to 35 Whelen. I beleive his site is  www.cutrifle.com, he can be a little hard to get ahold of. But he will get back to you if you leave him a phone message or email. Two years ago his cost was $315.00 to rebore, rerifle, chamber, recrown and return shipping, dont know if his prices have changed. He will want to know the muzzle diameter of your rifle to see if there is enough steel to be safe.    Hope this helps,  Karry

Offline Bart Solo

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Re: 35 Whelen Questions
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2008, 03:54:10 PM »
Thanks.

Offline CapoWard

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Re: 35 Whelen Questions
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2008, 06:10:08 PM »
If you want to use pistol bullets for practice then you’ll need the standard factory twist rate for proper stabilization.

Looked at a couple of custom barrel manufacturer websites, here are their common twist rates:
.338 – 8” or 10”
.358 – 14”
.366 – 12”
.375 – 12”
I’d say based upon this listing that the .358’s standard twist rate of either 1 in 14” or 1 in 16” are excessively slow and that at least a 1 in 12” twist rate should be used to assure proper stabilization of long and/or heavy bullets.

Offline Bart Solo

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Re: 35 Whelen Questions
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2008, 08:15:49 PM »
If the custom barrel makers have standardized on a twist of 1:14, why do you conclude 1:14 is too slow?

Offline rickt300

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Re: 35 Whelen Questions
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2008, 03:05:48 AM »
1 in 16 twists work just fine with pointed bullets up to 250 grains. I don't know where this jarhead attitude about this twist not working with standard weight bullets came from. I think it is just plain Remington bashing. Think about it why would Remington build a rifle using a twist that would not stabilize their own factory loaded 250 grain Pointed soft point corelokt bullet. I have never heard anyone say the Reminton rifle in 35 Whelen was not accurate with the 250 grain pointed bullets.
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Offline Mckie Hollow

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Re: 35 Whelen Questions
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2008, 04:13:51 AM »
This is true. There must be some technical reason that the Remington engineers chose the 1:16 twist. Despite some beliefs, these Guys know what they are doing. Anyone care to give them a call and ask them why they are putting the wrong twist in the 35 & 350 mag.?

Offline Skunk

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Re: 35 Whelen Questions
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2008, 06:35:48 AM »
Yeah!!! What Rickt and Mckie said.
Mike

"Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" - Frank Loesser

Offline CapoWard

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Re: 35 Whelen Questions
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2008, 05:09:46 PM »
ER Shaw uses a 1:14 twist in it's 35 Whelen barrels.  So apparently they agree that 1:16 might be a little too slow. 
Ron,
The 1:14" twist will stabilize current .358 caliber bullets manufactured in the USA inclusive of the 275 gr Kodiak PP and the 280 gr Swift Semi-Spitzer bullets but it will not stabilize the 310 gr Woodleigh FMJ or the 250 gr GSC HV bullets which require a 1:13” and a 1:12" twist respectively to stabilize.  .  As more manufacturers produce the solid copper or bronze bullets - as are the GSC bullets - the bullet length will increase to match current bullet weights, hence the need for the 1:12" twist.  Just my take on the issue; I'd rather have the ability to stabilize heavy weight bullets rather than being able to practice with 158 gr pistol bullets.
Jim

Offline Hank08

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Re: 35 Whelen Questions
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2008, 06:00:32 AM »
With twist it's just about impossible to be just right for every bullet weight.  It's always better to err on the fast side rather than the slow.  Example, my .358 Norma with it's
1 in 12 twist shoots everything from 110 Rem. SJHP to Speer 275 gr. accurately but shoots the 250 Speers best of all.  It would be interesting to know what goes on when a co. makes a new gun.  Did they, perhaps, say, hey we're already set up to make .35 rem. barrels in 1 in 16"  It'll be better (read cheaper) to keep it the same.
These are the same engineers that decided the .244 (6mm) should have a 1 in 12
twist  then later changed it to 1 in 9 after it was too late.  6mm never recovered from that.
H08

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: 35 Whelen Questions
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2008, 06:54:32 AM »
Speer 275 gr.
Hey Hank!

Can you give me a part # or something else on the 275 gr. Speer?  I can't find it on their site and I sure would like to ttry some in my WHelen!   :)
Richard
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Offline ragnar

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Re: 35 Whelen Questions
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2008, 03:23:54 AM »
I purchased a Remington CDL 35 whelen in '06 and I'm very satisfied with the performance.
Mounted a Leupold 2-7 on a one piece base.
Use 225 TSX and 60.5 gr. or Reloader 15.  At 200 yards, it consistently keeps 3" groups.
Plenty good for whitetail, moose or elk.

Offline crash87

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Re: 35 Whelen Questions
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2008, 04:17:22 AM »
One reason for a 1:16 twist as opposed to faster twist could be that, historically 35 calibers in the United States have been used for deer sized game, while 35 calibers in, say Africa aren't, (350 Rigby), Hence the twist rate, Remember in America speed sells, common, practical sense sometimes lapses, because a writer we like said something we want to hear, it's repeated until it's a well known fact. (just look at our last election)
 A 1:16 as offered by Remington/Ruger "WILL" stabilize 250 gr bullets. As far as gunsmiths standardizing a 1:14 twist, that is not a standard. That is to sell rifle barrels to customers who "READ" things about twist rates in 35 calibers. I speak of hands on knowledge. I own a 35 Whelen with a 1:12 twist, built to specifically handle heavyweights, although it's never shot anything more than a 250 gr bullet. Does that mean it's to fast to stabilize a 200 gr bullet, 225,  or even the 250? When they 1st came out I  loaded for a friends Whelen, 1;16 twist, free bore? not in his rifle. 200 and 250's gave excellent accuracy/velocity readings. So much so it has been his standard deer rifle for years.
        Because of what has been written the Whelen just can't catch a break. It's been in fierce competition with the 338/06 since who knows when. It was even a factory round from a powerhouse company, as opposed to the 338/06 that became a factory, factory?, round late. In fact if it wasn't for Weatherby I wonder if many shooters would have even known about it. We had, at the time ,the gun hacks pitting a factory round against a wildcat, and people buying it!! "A 35 whelen can't get the velocity out of a 250 gr bullet a 338/06 can!" "The 338/06 250 gr bullet has a better sectional density and ballistic coefficient than ANY 35 caliber!" "It will retain more energy and penetrate deeper at all ranges!" "35 WHELEN!!! oh why, oh why, didn't Big Green standardize the 338/06 back in "87??" AND, my favorite, "35 caliber rounds just are not popular with American shooters."
       Ron, see if you can borrow that rifle that somebody bought and check it out yourself. See if the cartridges rattle around, They won't, and then see if you can shoot some rounds through it, for accuracy purposes, If it isn't accurate, contrary to what has been written, it's a good bet it's not the cartridge or the brand of rifle or the particular model of rifle, it's probably just that rifle your holding in your hands. Unfortunately if that's the case some gun writer will find out and write about ALL of those rifles. If your not sure about the factory twist, then by all means get a rebarrel, wouldn't you be money ahead, no matter the extra cost?
    Consumer Hands on experience is a dangerous thing unless of course your the consumer laying down your hard earned money. Enjoy your hopefully soon to be 35 Whelen, you'll never look back, and you'll have a heck of a good time defending it, I have. CRASH87

       

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: 35 Whelen Questions
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2008, 06:30:19 AM »
Yeah!  What Crash said!  I've stated my opinion of the Whelen to many times to go over it again here, but I think...  ::), well, Crash said it.   ;D

And, since it's been brought up, does anyone know a source for inexpensive .358 bullets that weigh OVER 250 gr.?  I can't find the Speers that were mentioned before.
Richard
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Offline Cecil

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Re: 35 Whelen Questions
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2008, 09:53:20 AM »
ATlLaw I would not call these cheap North fork makes 270 grain bonded bullets in .358
Cecil

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: 35 Whelen Questions
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2008, 11:07:53 AM »
North fork makes 270 grain bonded bullets in .358

Oy!  I'll bet they aren't cheap!   ::)  Didn't I hear something about them going out of business?   :-\
Richard
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Offline CapoWard

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Re: 35 Whelen Questions
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2008, 02:55:46 PM »
North fork makes 270 grain bonded bullets in .358

Oy!  I'll bet they aren't cheap!   ::)  Didn't I hear something about them going out of business?   :-\
The business has been sold - bullets are more expensive now but understand that quality is still there.  Here's their new weblink:
http://www.northforkbullets.com/magento/
Jim

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: 35 Whelen Questions
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2008, 03:05:32 PM »
Oy!   :o  $76 for 50!   ::)  Sorry, I'm not that curious about how they would shoot outa my M700 CDL!  Thanks for the link though!  I've heard good things about those bullets!   ;D
Richard
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Offline WyoStillhunter

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Re: 35 Whelen Questions
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2008, 05:26:09 PM »
My Rem. 700 Classic (Limited Edition, 1984) handles Speer and Hornady 250 gr. bullets just fine (pointed and round nose).  It also shoots 225 FN and both RN and SP 200 gr. bullets just fine.  I have not tried any premium bullets in my reloading.  1:16 will get the job done.
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Offline clod hopper

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Re: 35 Whelen Questions
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2008, 11:13:10 AM »
35 Whelen has been my hunting rifle since it was purchased in 87. It is remington 700 limited classic 1-16 twist. A few observations.
You do not need bonded bullets at whelen velocity useing rifle bullets in normal weights for big game.
The rifle will stabilize cast gas checked Lyman 358-009 280 grain round nose. And probably will fling them into into a tighter group than I can hold.
despite the Lee shooter program saying it wouldn't work.
My favorite load was 225 seirra spitzer boattails loaded to low 2400 FPS with 4064. Accurate, dependable, reletive soft recoil.
Jacketed pistol bullets .357 Dia are fun shooting and explosive varmit bullets. But use light loads, as pistol bullets were not desinged to spin any near the RPM you can get them up to. They can break up in mid air before arrival on target.
Several rifles have passed through my hands in the last 21 years, but this is the one to take with for big game.

clod hopper
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