Author Topic: Help me decide (Read 1626 times)

CoffeeInMe · « **on:** December 21, 2008, 09:21:00 AM »

Im going to buy a 223 for my two sons to grow up with shooting deer. I know its not a big caliber but will work just fine since I will be with them to limit the angle of the deer before shooting as well as the distance. Anyway I cant decide between some rifles which are Savage, CZ, and Tikka. Here is what I do know and that is I will be shooting deer loads of 55 to 65 grains so first question is what would be the best twist rate for this weight ? Also I certainly want open sights with possible factory fiber optic sights or after market replacements.
Thanks

Catfish · « **Reply #1 on:** December 21, 2008, 10:09:36 AM »

Any of the 3 gun you named will doo everything you want, with the proper twist. I would recomand a 1 in 9 twist. It should stablize up to 70 gn. bullet for deer and down to 50 gn. bullets for groundhogs ect. Lately I have been buying Savages because the barrel are so easy to change and I`m into wildcats.

CoffeeInMe · « **Reply #2 on:** December 21, 2008, 10:40:55 AM »

Thanks for your help Catfish. Im leaning toward Savage because of theyre open sights and I believe they can be replaced with Williams sights if need be.

BBF · « **Reply #3 on:** December 21, 2008, 12:54:15 PM »

If you insists on using a 223 for deer, please,please put at least a scope on the rifle.

CoffeeInMe · « **Reply #4 on:** December 21, 2008, 03:22:10 PM »

Quote from: BBF on December 21, 2008, 12:54:15 PM

If you insists on using a 223 for deer, please,please put at least a scope on the rifle.

Thanks BBF we might just do that but I would like to ask you why ?

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #5 on:** December 21, 2008, 03:26:50 PM »

I hope the deer in your area are the dog-sized variety. Never been a fan of a .223 for deer and have always considered it a cartridge for experts, not beginners.

Savage_99 · « **Reply #6 on:** December 21, 2008, 04:58:52 PM »

CoffeeInMe,

I consider the .223 too small for deer and more likely to wound one. In fact the 223 is not legal in many states. Get a larger caliber.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #7 on:** December 21, 2008, 06:26:05 PM »

Buy your boys a 243.

no guns here · « **Reply #8 on:** December 21, 2008, 06:43:37 PM »

Please... do not get them a .223 to start deer hunting with. Get them a 7.62x39 or a .30-30, either can be handled by kids and much better choices than a .223. My daughter started with a 20 ga Ultra Slug Hunter and light, slow slugs. She was 11 or so. She's small, only 5'2" and 115 lbs now at 16. Your kids can handle it too. Get them a G2 even and then a .357 or something. Just please not a .223. I've used it for head shots on a cull with an AR and a nice scope. That worked but I wouldn't take body shots... Just my two cents worth.

ngh

BBF · « **Reply #9 on:** December 22, 2008, 10:52:39 AM »

I agree with the posts after my initial response. You could do better with the other mentioned calibers.
The reason I mentioned a scope and this would have been with any of the other calibers is the fact that new shooters have w a much better chance of hitting what they aim at without having to worry about a proper sight picture as is required in open sights. Also even a lower power scope wil show that little branch or twig that is right in front of your target that you would never see otherwise. The placement of the bullet is just about everything, especially with a small caliber bullet.

CoffeeInMe · « **Reply #10 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:48:31 PM »

Thanks for all the help. I will keep the larger caliber and scope in mind.

Blowtorch53 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 02, 2009, 11:38:25 AM »

Coffee,

The .243 Winchester is a good caliber for youngsters. It is a much better deer cartridge than the .223. The .223 is good in the hands of an expert or very experienced hunter, but not for kids. The .243 has very little recoil and you can get factory loads up to 100 grains. The .22 calibers are not legal in some states for deer. They can be used here in Texas. If you are not going to scope the rifle, I would buy them a .30-30 for a starter. A simple one like an H&R is cheap and very dependable. I will do anything you want to do deer hunting with iron sights and it's as kid proof as you can make it. You can probably buy it with the hi-viz sites or add them on. Train them well about safety!!!!!

BT53

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #12 on:** January 02, 2009, 01:53:25 PM »

Out of the three for the boys I would say the CZ 527 Carbine.
They also make it in 7.62X39 that may be just a little better for deer.
Cheap practice ammo and soft points are availible for hunting.
The carbine is a little shorter with the weight set back to the center of the rifle making it better for kids as they do not have to lean back to shoulder the rifle but can stand or kneel like they have a red rider in thier hands. has factory mounted sights. www.cz-usa.com
My rifles vary in twist I have three soon to be five items that send 223 bullets down range.
My AR is a 1:9 and the Remington M700 is not, but both shoot 43 grain(Rem green lead free stuff),45 (UMCJHP), 50(Fed SP), 55 (Am Eagle55 FMJboat tail), and 60 (Fed Nosler Part) bullets just fine out to 100 yards. My T/C pistol is OK with everyting but the Am Eagle as it is loaded to 556 and a little too much pressure for the gun.
For the price of one CZ 527 carbine you can get the boys thier own H&R handi in .30-30 plus 100 rounds of ammo for each, not to mention buying beat up spare stocks here on GBO, cutting the stocks to fit them and adding fiber optic front sights, cases, slings and swivels with some $ to spare. I'm sure if you post a picture of the boys with the rifles on the handi site some one will send you stocks to cut up.

03A2 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 02, 2009, 07:30:17 PM »

A couple of things- 1st) the faster twist most likely needed for heavy for caliber bullets in the 223 are commonly only found in relatively expensive autoloaders 2nd) If you don't want an autoloader but do want factory installed open sights I think you are probably limited to CZ as most rifle companies nowadays, especially when chambering a cartridge like the 223, assume you will use a scope exclusively.

I will second the opinion that in order to guarantee accuracy a 1:9 twist is probably needed for 60-70 grainers. May I ask where you are hunting?

CoffeeInMe · « **Reply #14 on:** January 03, 2009, 01:52:06 AM »

We hunt in TN.
Thanks for all the help but the gun has been ordered and there will be a scope. Our two sons have grown up shooting quite often as we have a small area for them to do so. They have grown up on open sights and with a young ones eye sight they are good with them and I was dead set on open sights for that reason not to mention simplicity and saving the extra cash. Then I remembered that Im starting them off in a ground blind and we cant see squat for open sights in a dark blind so I went with the scope. I went with ground blind because I feel its much more safe. I might go back to the elevated ladder stands when they get older but Im not sure yet. Like I say thanks for the help and concerns but the correct shot placement is key and has been drilled into the oldest sons mind as we have been through so many website deer pictures showing different angles and positions that its not funny. We have also been through shot angles in real life without rifles. Not to mention the practicing I have taken with him and to ensure he can hit at least five times in a row within a 3 to 4 inch circle at a hundred yards (resting). I let him use a bi-pod. He has killed his second deer this year and the youngest one will be right behind him soon.
I will be getting a Stevens model 200 in the .223 and I have a youth stock on the way from another individual. It will be mounted with a Sightron 4x32.

mannyrock · « **Reply #15 on:** January 03, 2009, 05:10:35 AM »

Coffee!!!!

I lived and deer hunted in Tennessee for more than 28 years. I just moved from Tennessee to Virginia last year.

It is my firm understanding that it is absolutely illegal to hunt deer with a .223 in the State of Tennessee. My understanding is that all hunting rifles for deer must be 24 caliber or larger.

Did you get a copy of the Tennessee hunting regs and take a look???

Coffee, the .223 is illegal in about half the States for hunting deer, and that is for a very good reason. They are marginal at best for killing deer!!!

If your son is a novice hunter, he is going to do nothing but wound deer with that .223. They will be running off, and leaving no blood trail, and dying a slow agonizing death.

Please go back to the store where you ordered the rifle, tell them that you made a mistake, and see if they can cancel the order. If not, then most places would be happy to have you buy a different rifle from them, and just have the other one arrive a keep it for sale to someone else.

Mannyrock

nomosendero · « **Reply #16 on:** January 03, 2009, 05:28:06 AM »

No need for me to enter the tired discussion about the 223 for hunting if the round is illegal in TN. Coffee, have you checked that?

Kurt L · « **Reply #17 on:** January 03, 2009, 05:29:14 AM »

I will say I have a 223 and the kids shoot it buy we have never tried it on deer,
I can not say how it would as we have never tried it and have other guns.

But i can say we have 243's also.
Just this year with mine I shot 3 deer and they never moved.and it does not kick.
mine is a 26" heavy barrel and I shoot 58gr Hornady v max at close to 3800 fps
it puts them down like they got hit lightning.

rifle_man · « **Reply #18 on:** January 03, 2009, 06:13:50 AM »

I would get your boys a 243win that is what I got my boys this Christmas.

CoffeeInMe · « **Reply #19 on:** January 03, 2009, 12:34:16 PM »

Thank you all for your help.

03A2 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 03, 2009, 12:41:39 PM »

I checked the regs at Tennessee wildlife resources website and they list under legal hunting equipment, "any centerfire rifle". Listed under prohibited equipment are the usual full metal jackets, night vision scopes, electronic sighting devices, etc. Of course, some areas might be limited to short range weapons only, I didn't read the whole thing as I will probably never hunt in Tennesse, but found it interesting after hearing so much about "most states don't allow .22 centerfires" that their only caliber restriction is on rimfires, just like here in Idaho. Theres two states of the fifty, anybody have a link to a website with condensed hunting regs for all the states?

nomosendero · « **Reply #21 on:** January 03, 2009, 03:20:21 PM »

Quote from: 03A2 on January 03, 2009, 12:41:39 PM

I checked the regs at Tennessee wildlife resources website and they list under legal hunting equipment, "any centerfire rifle". Listed under prohibited equipment are the usual full metal jackets, night vision scopes, electronic sighting devices, etc. Of course, some areas might be limited to short range weapons only, I didn't read the whole thing as I will probably never hunt in Tennesse, but found it interesting after hearing so much about "most states don't allow .22 centerfires" that their only caliber restriction is on rimfires, just like here in Idaho. Theres two states of the fifty, anybody have a link to a website with condensed hunting regs for all the states?

Thank you!! Now that I see you can shoot the 223 for Deer, time to make a comment.

NAM70 · « **Reply #22 on:** January 03, 2009, 03:37:56 PM »

Quote from: mcwoodduck on January 02, 2009, 01:53:25 PM

Out of the three for the boys I would say the CZ 527 Carbine.

I agree. CZ is making some nice guns

nomosendero · « **Reply #23 on:** January 03, 2009, 03:54:07 PM »

Quote from mannyrock "If your son is a novice hunter, he is going to do nothing but wound Deer with that 223. They will be running off, and leaving no blood trail & dying a slow agonizing death" OH REALLY

And spoken with such certainty too!! Do you have the personal experience to be so sure, no matter where they are shot & no matter what bullet is used? I am thinking not!! A 60 grain Nosler Partition, all of the X bullets, 65 Sierra, 60 gr. Hornady softpoint & others penetrate a Deer's rib cage (good sized Bucks too) no problem IF yardage is kept low (50-75 yds. prefered) & angles carefully observed.

I have knowledge of over 200 Deer harvested with the 223(link to come). In my early days I & my brothers harvested several with the round.

Do I consider the 223 to be a Deer round? NO
Do I hunt Deer with the round currently? NO
Is there a contradiction here? NOPE
Will the 223 harvest ANY Buck @100 yards(or22-250 @ 150+yds.)with a double lung shot with the right bullet Yes

It is mainly due to distance & angles. I don't want to be restricted when I don't have to. I discussed this before in great detail & don't want to type it again, but here it is:

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,119426.0.html

THIS LINK ALSO EXPLAINS THE REASON I DON"T HUNT DEER WITH A 223

I started my 2 youngest boys hunting with Handi rifles. I bought a 243 & a 223. I would not let them hunt
without me sitting with them for at least 2 years. I started them at 10 years old, I moved Tony into the 243 right off because he was large for his age (born half grown). The rule was that the Deer had to be within 50 yards, not only because of the small round, but also because I knew they would place the bullet properly due to their practice sessions & I would be there to keep them calm & coach them. They also had to be broadside or near broadside. Any shot beyond 50 yds. or at a sharp angle would be a Deer for me to shoot with more rifle.

Both boys harvested Deer this way, no problem & with memories that I will not forget. No Deer were lost & no Deer were hard to find. But please keep in mind the rules they observed with my supervision to make sure they would do well. CoffeeInMe mentioned he would do this & this changes things dramatically.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #24 on:** January 03, 2009, 05:07:43 PM »

Coffe,
Good choice. Let us know how the kids do.

CoffeeInMe · « **Reply #25 on:** January 04, 2009, 12:58:01 AM »

Like I said before thank you all for your help. I could sit here and tell everyone this long spill of information about what Im doing and how Im doing it. All will work out just fine.
Thanks again for all the help. Lets move on please.
Thanks for the info nomosendero.

Savage_99 · « **Reply #26 on:** January 10, 2009, 12:29:35 PM »

coffeeinme,

If you bought the 223 for deer hunting it is irresponsible. There are much better cartridges.

I know someone very well who shot a buck standing broadside at about 125 yards in the ribs with a 222 loaded with 55 gr bullets and the buck ran off and was never found.

CoffeeInMe · « **Reply #27 on:** January 10, 2009, 08:53:43 PM »

Like I said before thank you all for your help. I could sit here and tell everyone this long spill of information about what Im doing and how Im doing it. All will work out just fine.
Thanks again for all the help. Lets move on please.

wareagleguy · « **Reply #28 on:** January 11, 2009, 05:14:17 AM »

I would suggest you change you subject. You asked "Help me decide" but it appears you already made up your mind. From these post you didn't get what you wanted, support using a 223. I am with others here and it is very good to know that the 223 is NOT the round for a child.