used rifles vs new / condition of rifling

[Brushhunter]

Hello Gentlemen (and of course any ladies who may be regulars here)--

I've never posted to the bolt-action forum, though I've been active in the lever action and deer hunting sections.  I've tried a search of the forum, but my question is so general I couldn't seem to come up with narrow enough search terms, so I hope you'll indulge me and offer some advice.  I was reading Yukon Jack's topic on "your next deer rifle," and it reminded me of a question I've been wondering about lately.

I own one rifle, a venerable and very trusty Marlin 336 lever action in .35 Remington.  It's never failed me on whitetails in Maine (where I hunt every year).  Has a Lyman #66 peep sight and is perfect for shots in brush and under 100 yards: good fast second shot, good knockdown power with the 200-grain factory loads, and for the purpose I'd never give it up.

Nevertheless, I know the day is coming when I'm going to want a good bolt-action rifle.  I'm thinking of a black bear hunt at some point, and the .35 Remington is ok if you really place the shot, but it's considered marginal by most of the Maine guides I've been talking to.  Some of them say, "don't worry, I'll lend you a 45-70," but I'm absolutely commited to quick, humane kills, and to me that means a confidently well-placed shot with a caliber that has the capability to do the necessary damage, not a borrowed rifle with unknown and unfamiliar characteristics.  There's the distinct possibility of a moose permit.  Also, at some point in the next couple of years, I'm wanting to try some longer range stuff out west, to include mulies, elk, and maybe beyond. I'm not averse to buying a new rifle, and I read the posts on Savage and the low-end Weatherbys with great interest.  Also the idea about Bushnell scopes.  I'm not a huge fan of Remington--I do a good deal of upland bird, duck, and turkey hunting and have had repeated bad experiences with their customer service department.

What I want is a caliber and rifle / scope combination that I can grow and learn with as I extend my hunting.  I say this because I've had the same trusty Ithaca model 37 shotgun (got rid of a new Remington 870, which had quickly developed a loose trigger assembly: Remington declined to fix it one month after I bought it, so I decided to go back to the worn and familiar old Ithaca) and the same Marlin 336 for years.  Basically, I have two guns for everything I do, and I've learned to shoot them reasonably well rather than having a whole bunch of guns that I shoot semi-well.  I hasten to add that I'm no "expert" shot.  I shoot alot and I know my piece--how to clean it, where it shoots, what it'll do in a given situation.  That's my formula, and it works for me.  I bought both the shotgun and the rifle used.  Shotguns, I know about and can horse trade with the best of 'em.  But I just lucked out on the Marlin, which has turned out to be a great shooter.

If I can save a few bucks on a used multi-purpose large-game bolt-action, great. So much the better to chip in with a few buddies to pay an outfitter for a really excellent trip.  If not and I need to buy a brand-new bolt action to get decent quality, so be it.  Here is my question, and if you've read this far you're probably good and ready for me to get to the point!  But--this kind of advice needs some personal background, so I hope you'll forgive me.

What are the things you all look for in a used bolt action?  I'm aware of a sloppy bolt lockup, misfeeding, and really dysfunctional stock (I don't care much what it looks like, although I'd prefer wood--my ideal stock would be an un-checkered oil finish, but I know that's unlikely--in fact, I looked and the Weatherby Vanguard only comes in composite.  Sigh.  Guess I could get used to it, rather than pay more than twice the MSRP for a sporter).  My real concern is the rifling.  How do you know if the rifle is "shot out"?  Any way to tell by simply looking down the bore?  Or do I need to take it to the range and buy all kinds of loads to put through it?  Even if I do have to take the used rifle to the range to make sure it's not "shot out,"  is there a way to reject really obvious bad bores right in the gunshop, thus narrowing the field? Can wear to the bolt or bolt face cause innaccuracy and / or undependability? How do I detect such harmful wear, as opposed to superficical wear that comes with normal use? As I said,I really think I lucked out with the Marlin--I bought it long ago, when I had no idea what I was doing, and apparently it hadn't been shot overmuch.  Maybe the few bucks I save buying a used rifle would not be worth it?  Perhaps a used Ruger costs more than a brand new Savage or low-end Weatherby with nice new sharp lands and grooves?

My current thought is that a .308 would suit my purpose well--I'm an old fashioned guy, and I know the .308 is reasonably priced, with reasonably-priced ammo.  More practice shooting, less agonizing over caliber, that's my idea.  I'm not a reloader and don't really want to be--I'm more a hunter than a shooter, if you know what I mean.  Is the .308 adequate to my purposes?  I also like the option of less recoil, though my .35 Remington kicks fairly hard in the carbine and I've learned to work with it.

Thanks for bearing with this monster post, but I really do need good advice, you guys sure seem to know what you're talking about, and I wanted to give you solid background to work with.  If there's another thread that I missed in my search or someplace else that I ought to be looking, feel free to let me know.

All the best,

Brushunter

(perhaps soon to be "open country hunter")  :lol:

[jhm]

Brushunter :  First off you 35 will kill any black bear as dead as if had been struck by lightning, dont buy into the fact that you will need anymore gun than that good old 35, shot placement is critical and like you stated in your post you are confident with it and somewhat proficient as well, now to a long range weapon for mule deer and elk, my choice would al,most come down to a 7mag,but only nudging out the 30-06 by a hair if I located a good high quality 30-06 I wouldnt think twice about buying it, how do you tell if a gun is shot out, in over 40+ years of doing business and just messing with rifles I have never found a gun that was SHOT OUT most problems with a used gun is plain neglect the previous owner not properly taking care of the gun after a shooting session, always seemed to find time to shot them no time to clean them, find a dealer who you can work out a relationship with who will show you what to look for in a used gun and have a talk with him as to what you are willing to spend on a decent rifle, have him look for something he thinks will satisfy your needs, and buy it and buy quality, dont always let thge price dictate your choice, remember half the fun of buying a new rifle or handgun is the looking, and have fun doing the looking.    JIM

[Cabin4]

I agree with jhm, the 35 rem is totally capable of putting down a black bear. Put the bullet in the boiler room and your dead bear will be close by your bait site. I would feel comfortable taking out a black bear with the 35rem out to 125 or so yards. Your current iron sight set up to me are a range limitation with this gun.

To the bore, I look for a, bright shinny and clean bore. using a bore light or a piece of white paper to light the bore spin the barrel slowly so you can track the rifeling down the barrel with your eye. It should look like a perfect spiral. Look for pitting, rust or anything that is out of symetry with the rifleing. Sometime oil or tiny pieces of a bore patch may be sitting in the barrel and look like a scratch or pitting. If you see something that looks out of kilter, ask to run a clean patch thru. I have done this to find oil or a tiny piece of patch come out and now you see a clean bore.

Examine the crown. It should look perfectly shaped without any noticable dimpels or scratches, ect.

the outside of the gun should tell you alot about who owned it and how they cared for it. If it looks beat on the outside, I stay away. I'm not taking a chance. It may be  a great shooter, but I don't know that. I have guns that are 25 years old and people tell me thay look brand new. Thats because i take just as good care of the bore as I do the stock and other exterior parts. Looking at how someone cared for the outside of the gun is a glimse, at who owned it and hopefully they cared for the entire gun.

I also like the other advise about dealing with a gun shop that knows guns and you can trust. If there is an issue, you can bring it back and hopefully rectify the issue.

There are some books available on "knowing how to buy a used gun" that gets into the deep aspects of buying and inspecting a used gun. I would recommend getting a copy and do a little reading. Thre is so much to go into I could copy the book in this post. But, I can't find that old book anyway so that won't work.

[longwinters]

Brushhunter, I would concure with jhm.  This guy always makes a lot of sense.  If you are looking for a good caliber for general use from one coast to another, There are quite a few calibers that would fit the bill nicely.  I am a 30-06 fan in the general catagory.  I now have a 7mm but after having it (and I really like it) I miss my 06 that I traded in for it. The 308 is also a good caliber but I like the 06 better in the 30 cal.  just because it has always appealed to me.  Buy and shoot what you have confidence in, because in the end . . . that is what really counts.  Have fun shopping.

long

[Brushhunter]

Thanks longwinters, cabin4, and JHM for such great advice,  It all makes perfect sense, and of course I'll take heed.  Cabin, I wanted to mention that I once did have a scope on my Marlin--'twas a 1.3-5x32 shotgun scope and it did increase accuracy at longer ranges.  I went back to the peep sight (and gave up the possibility of taking certain longish shots), just because I wanted to hunt with the peep.  Somehow, a scope on an old Marlin carbine was a bit unaesthetic to me.  Call me old-fashioned, I just like the rifle better that way.  It does definitely mean there are some situations where I won't shoot!  As you say, the peep sight is a range limitation.  But to tell you the truth, I don't hunt just to get a deer to bring home anyway.  To each his own!  I realize, of course, that the bolt-action will need a good scope, and I intend to look into this aspect as well.  I'm always amazed at the quality and quantity of great advice in these forums.

Thanks again and good luck to all :grin:

Brushhunter

[Mikey]

You have received some of the best and most qualified advice I have ever read on these forums.  I agree with longwinters in his preference for the 30-06 - it can and will do anything the 7mm magnum will do.  

But, one more thing - you have that peep sight on your Marlin now and that should enable you to place your bullet as far as it is effective and you can clearly see your target.  You need not try to locate any other type of sight - the peep gives you the greatest clarity and most light of any of the open sights and with a modicum of practice you should find it more than capable of allowing accurate placement out to the max effective range of the cartridge.  Yes, the peep sights are great for brush and short range - the reason is their ability to allow the shooter to see more clearly and to see more of the target but don't consider this to limit the effective range of your shot placement - it enhances it.

I would go with what you trust and know - the caliber is capable enough - just practice a bit for a possible long shot and you just might pleasantly surprise yourself at how well you can hit at distances with that peeper.  Hope this helps and good luck.  Mikey.

[Brushhunter]

Hmmm. You know, I've never even considered trying beyond a hundred yards at the range.  I usually bench it with sandbags and then shoot offhand, sitting, and prone.  It's about an inch high at 100 yards with Winchester XX 200-grain round nose bullets.  I've actually never killed a deer beyond 50 yards.  I don't take a shot if the deer is moving, unless it is a barely perceptible walk; don't take shots from the rear, and don't usually take em 'head on.  I did kill one buck when he was quartering toward me and standing still--I could clearly see the outline of his foreleg where it went into the shoulder.

This September as I go through my normal sighting-in and practice routine I will try some longer shots.  Thanks Mikey for your thoughts!

[eroyd]

Brushhunter, from what I've read I believe you are already quite proficient with what you have and your ethics in regards to taking only ideal shots on game alone dictates your success.
The 35 rem. in your hands is more than enough medicine for blackbears and most N.American game within its effective range.
Going to a 308 or '06 could indeed give you a bit more effective range on the big stuff, but if your really serious about making a step, why not make it a little bigger and go to 7mm, 300 or 338 mag. Then you would be set up for anything. I've shot a Rem. Model 8 in 35 Rem and found it less comfortable to shoot than the above in the right rifles. (Nasty little gun that one)
As for buying used guns, reputable dealers don't get reputable by BS'ing and selling crap to customers. The only thing I might add when looking at a used gun is look out for signs of tampering by do-it your-selfers. ie. stripped screwheads/threads. heavily marked pins,  un-professional looking repairs, bedding etc.

[crow_feather]

BRUSHHUNTER,  I MUST AGREE WITH eroyd.  I SHOOT A 338 MAG. IN A SHILEN BARRELED MAUSER ACTION.   FOR DEER, BLACK BEAR, AND WILD BOAR, I LOAD IT WITH 55 GR OF IMR4064 AND A 200 GRAIN SPEER SP - WHICH EQUALS THE 358 WINCHESTER RIFLE.  I STOKE IT UP FOR ELK AND MOOSE.  WHERE I HUNT ELK, THERE ARE GRIZ.  IT'S NICE TO KNOW I AM CARRYING SOMETHING THAT WILL STOP A GRIZ BESIDES PEPPER SPRAY.  

c f

[Brushhunter]

Well I must say I am getting quite an education here.  I'm not the least bit familiar with any of these larger calibers, except that I know the 7MM by name and from reading Outdoor Life (not to mention John McPhee's _Coming Into the County_).  Never bothered with any of these bigger pieces, just because until now, I never thought of them as necessary hunting tools.  I am much heartened to hear several of the posters say that good gun dealers don't sell worn out rifles.  Also glad to have all the advice on looking at used guns!  

What do you all like for scopes-- I've never put a ton of money into anything if I could get good value and usefulness by buying used or something less-expensive.  Seems to me a used scope might be iffy though.  What's a good mid-renge (referring to price, not distance) scope for the money?  For a guy who's spent most of his life with shotguns, what would you recommend?  Possibly you'll laugh, but I have to say it: I find using a scope claustrophobic.  I grew up on ducks, quail, and pheasants, so that little tunnel you have to peer through on a scope drives me batty. I had a 1.5-5X 32mm Simmons shotgun scope on my Marlin 336 .35 Remington for one season, which everyone at the deer camp thought was the perfect setup for deer in Maine, but I got rid of it and went back to the peeper. I even know people who put scopes on -gasp!-- shotguns!!!  However, I know shooting with a scope is a skill I'll have to learn one dayif I want to grow as a hunter!  I have normal vision, except that I have reading glasses about 1.5 X to see charts, maps, smallish print etc.

Thanks and good luck to all!

Brushhunter

[Cabin4]

Mickey,

I don't now about you, but I find it extremlly difficult to use peep sights at distance targets. Peeps for me are great at short range like at 50 yards in good light. Even on a target the size of a deer, once you get near 100 yards, the front site obstructs so much of the animal, that consistant and proper shot placement in the vitals becomes more difficult. The other limitation, which to me is more critical, it light. Under low light conditions say at dusk, all I see is black on black and the outline of the front sight, well , its likes its not even there. Now put a black reap peep line it up with a black front sight to a black bear ! talk about a difficult propisition.

These are the limitations of using any iron sight set up.A rear peep is a good step up from factory iron, but for me it still can't come close to the ease of target aqusistion, maximizing available light and ability to see your sight, in this case cross hairs. When you minimize this issue, you increase your shooting range and shooting time in the woods.

These are the reasons I mentioned his sight set as a limitation, rather than his 35rem. When hunting bear, a significant amout of bear are taken from early dusk to near end of shooting time in Maine when the light under the heavy forest canopy is  very low. With iron sight or a peep, you will not be able to shoot. A good high quality class optic, will provide a significant advantage under these low light circumstances. I know it has for me and I have perfect 20/20 vision. A Leupold VX2 in 1-4x20 on 1x power was my optic. Although I could only make out the silloutte of the bear under the very dim light, when I raised the gun, I could clearly make out the bears outline and I could clearly see my cross hairs. Thats all I needed and with iron, the shot could not have happened. If you can't see your sighting mechinisiam, you cant shoot.

As a test, Brushunter should take his gun with the peep set outside at dusk under a heavy canopy of trees. Set up a black target of anyting such as a piece of cardboard painted black about the size of a bear. Pace out 50 yards back and pull up his gun. Look thru the peep set. If he can see the black cardboard clearly and line up his sight set enough , then don't bother. If he can't, then get a good scope or borrow one from someone to try this same thing. The scope would not have to be mounted to try this experiment. Give it a shot, this same exact experiment coinvinced me to remove my peep set and get glass for bear.

It would be hard to understand how someone could not easily make the transition from a peep sight to good glass optics and quickly improve thier shooting accuracy, target aquisition and extend thier shooting time in the woods.

I would highly encourage Brushhunter to at least try the option of using a good high quality optic on his 35rem or any gun for that matter when considering a game animal like bear or if he his looking to extend his range and shooting time.

[Mikey]

cabin4:  I understand and accept your position on the use of peep sights and the difficulties of placing that front sight on target at distances in low-light conditions.  That is a significant obstacle for many hunters and one I faced but felt I needed/wanted to deal with as I just have this 'thing' for hunting with lever actions and long range peep sights.  

The 'fix' I found was inexpensive enough - it was a blade front sight from Brownells with a white stripe centered on the blade, and dang me if it didn't work just the way I wanted it to.  I think the Ashley Ghost Ring Sights also use a 'stripped' front blade.  I felt I was fortunate in this regard, but I had also brought some lesser pleasing experiences with just those limitations you mentioned, into play when deciding on the type of front sight blade I wanted and needed.  And it has worked well enough for me to try and recommend the same to others who face similar types of problems.

Unfortunately, or possibly not, when I go to the range it isn't always the kind of clear, sunny and pleasant day we like to enjoy - most often it is later in the day, and often overcast with low light conditions, sometimes even raining or snowing.  I seem to have the bad luck of finding only that type of weather when I can enjoy some range time but possibly that is what has allowed me to maintain a skill level sufficient to continue with using peepers for long range shooting.  

I also understand the problem of placing the front sight properly in low light conditions but here I have found that with an adjustable rear peep (Lyman #2 Tang), knowing where the point of impact is in relation to the top of the front sight enables me to literally hold on the best lit or most lighted areas, even if it is off-target a bit, and get a good hit.  It's a bit like Kentucky Windage and as Brushhunter seems to have some pretty good skills the technique may serve him just as well.  Please understand that I simply will not advocate taking a bad shot just to hear the rifle or pistol go 'bang' but, either I'm one lucky fella or I have trained myself well enough to be successful.  And the point of my response to Brushhunter was to advocate he try and put in the additional time needed to be able to do the same, without thinking he would necessarily be limited to the shorter ranges lots of folks attribute to some cartridges.

Please also understand that I consider myself quite fortunate to be able to discuss issues and concerns like this with so many knowledgeable hunters and shooters.  I used to think I knew a lot about this stuff but thanks to all of you I learn something new every day.  Thanks all.  Mikey.

[Brushhunter]

I wish to second BOTH Mikey and Cabin4 in this way: 1) it's interesting that Cabin 4 mentioned a Leupold 1-4X20.  I take it, Cabin, that this is the "quality" optic you have in mind.  It is true that, set on "1" magnification, I would clearly feel less claustrophobia than if it were 4 or 5.  Tell me, are there any other brand names you would endorse?  Weaver (if they still make 'em), Bushnell?  Simmons?.  Also  I like Mikey's advice, because I share his "thing" about iron sights on lever guns.  It's really more aesthetics that anything else.

I'm going to try out the ideas you both mention.  Also, I want to thank both of you for sharing your wisdom!

Best,

Brushhunter

[eroyd]

I just put a leupold VXII 1x4 on my 358 win BLR. Wow! talk about fast target aquisition. I love it. With the scope set up at a perfect distance from the eye you don't even see the scope tube.

My other more long range rifles wear VXII 3x9's. They'd be VXIII's if I could afford it.

As for other brands, I'm selling my weaver and my B & L, both are good but are outclassed by Leupolds'. (my opinion)

[Cabin4]

Brushunter,

I understand the issue of looks. I have a 44mag lever gunthat will never have a scope on it. That is unless I hutn black bear with it. But since I have a 45-70 guide gun with the leupold 1-4x20mm I'm not concerned with the 44mag.

I don't think that you will feel the claustrophobia at all on 1 power.

Unfortuniatly Bushnell does not make a 20mm objective lens in either the 3200 or 4200 line up. What a shame.



Nikon, Burris, Weaver and Swift all make low power scopes with 20mm objectives lens that would work well in your application. The burris makes a compact line up that are in the $200 range and the Weaver and Swift are in the low $100 range. Stay away from Simmons and BSA. The Leupold and Nikon are around $240 ish. If money is an issue, I would highly consider the Swift in the $115 range or the Weavers about the same $$.

If your willing to go with a 33mm objective lens, then the opportunities grow. if $$ is not an issue, then there are more 20mm available also.

[Iowegan]

When examining a rifle for "wear", the bore is the least likely place to show it. Actually, the muzzle end is where the velocity is the highest and the first place where bore wear is evident. It's also the easiest to inspect. It's best to compare a new gun with a used one if you aren't sure what to look for. The rifling should have nice defined edges. The bore itself should not have any rust or pitting. The chamber, specifically the throat is where the damage is done with hot loads or extensive shooting. The throat or free bore is the area in the chamber from the case mouth to the start of the rifling. This area erodes (flame cutting) as the rifle is fired. Hot loads accelerate erosion. Once the chamber erodes, accuracy goes away. I have seen many rifles with very nice bores that suffered from throat erosion and poor accuracy. It is very hard to inspect a chamber. The best way is a casting or examining spent cases.

Cartridges such as 308 Win, 30-06 Sprg, and 223 Rem were developed for military use in automatic rifles where throat erosion is at it's worst. The reason these cartridges were selected was their inherent accuracy and extreemly long throat life. The case design, specifically shoulder angle is what makes them last so long. You would be hard pressed to wear out a bolt action barrel in any of these cartridges. A 30-06 or 308 is probably a wise choice.

I agree with the low power scope theory. The biggest mistake shooters make is to "over scope" (too much power). The higher the power the more critical the eye relief, narrow field of view, light transfer, parallax, and distortion.  The rule of thumb for scopes is 1X per 25 yds for deer sized game. I find a good 4X fixed power scope will meet most hunting needs.

[Brushhunter]

Tell me this, then: What's the diff between 20mm and 32mm?  I mean as far as the application goes?  Money is an issue insofar as I've always been relatively thrifty.  To me, that doesn't mean saving money at all costs and no matter what, it means spending money only when you have to in order to get the job done.  Hence my original question about buying used bolt-action rifles!  Are the 32mm more expensive?  And most important to me, are they worth the extra expense, and why?  I do have the money.  However, I'd rather give it to a good outfitter than spend it on a fancy rifle I don't really need.  But I'd rather buy a scope that will do what it's supposed to do, rather than save a couple of bucks and have the scope let me down in the field.  Make sense?

Thanks again,

Brushhunter

[Cabin4]

I focused on a 20mm lens in your application for 3 reasons.

1. Its a smaller profile scope and may address your concerns of how the scope looks on a lever gun. A smaller profile may be more pleasing to look at.

2. Close in hunting such as what your application is, a lower power, good eye relief, wide FOV will serve you well. The ability to go to 1x power under low light for close in shooting such as bear over bait is an advantage for target aqusition.

3. In low power maginification such as 1-4, a 20mm objective lens will give you all the light your eys can take in. It works as follows:

Divide the power mag into the objective lens size and you have a number that equals approximatly, depending on the scope quality, how many millimiters of light make it to your eye. The perfect human eye can only accept about 5mm of light. Example:

1-4x20mm scope. On 4 power, 20mm objective lens divided by 4 power = 5mm of light.
On 1 power, it equals 20mm of light. At any power setting a good quality scope of this set up will give all the light you need and that your eye can accept under all light circumstances. Thats why most if not all low power scopes that top out at 4 power have a 20mm objective lens. A larger objective lens provides no real function. There are makes out thier that use a 33mm lens on a 4 power scope, but I really don't understand that. I think its appeal to those who "think" the larger objective lens will give them more light or it has something to do with ease of manufacturing by consolidationg the use of the same objective lens into more scope applications. Nothing really wrong with this, just the way it is and I own a few of these with 33mm.

If your currenty comfortable with a peep sight set up, than a high quality low power scope like a 1-4 will give you a substantial step up in shooting ability and allow you to maximize the available time in the woods. Since we are talking applying this to a lever gun in 35rem for close in bear hunting, this would be my personal approach. If we starting talking about deer as well for the use of this gun, then I may (emphasize "may") step up to a 2-7x33 like the Bushnell 3200. But thats why I have a gun for bear and other guns for deer and so on.

If you don't mind the larger 33mm lens, Bushnell does make a Trophy model that sells for under $100. I believe its a 1-4.5 x33 and they aslo make this in a shotgun version that is 1-4x33mm with the 75yard parralex setting and a 4 inch eye relief with the circle x reticale. I have this one mounted on a slug gun and love it. Its not a Leupold, but for an economical rifled slug gun its works well and I don't care that its a larger scope on this set up. And since I only use this for deer in the special regulation counties, its use is limited. But when it comes to bear, my sensativity to what tools I use are mnore important.

I will be leaving Saturday Sep 6th for a bear hunt in Maine and my Marlin Guide Gun with the Leupold 1-4x20 will be my primary weapon again.

[Brushhunter]

Wow! Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge--and of course good luck on the bear hunt:)

Brushhunter

[Iowegan]

Cabin 4, Item 1 & 2 are right on. Item 3 is not. Scopes magnify not amplify.  You want all the light transfer you can get in any scope. There will never be a time when there is more light through the eyepiece than the front of the scope. The reason for larger objective lens (front lens) is distortion. The most distortion free part of the lens is the center. On a 20 mm lens, the view uses all of the lens making the edges somewhat distorted. A larger lens will direct the view through the center portion of the lens, which is more distortion free. Also, a larger diameter objective lens lets more light through. A fixed power scope has fewer internal lenses therefore passes more light and has less distortion. The shooter will see a clearer and brighter view.  The 20mm objective lens you were refering to is the focal length, not the diameter. The actual diameter of most 20mm lenses is about 25mm.
With optics, you pretty much get what you pay for. The main things to consider besides magnification and brightness are: resistance to recoil, anti-fogging, reticle, and parallax.

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

Brush----just exactly how much are you looking to spend on your new rifle/scope combo???

You can never have enough guns---and having a new gun to play with is always fun---forget the suggestion about using your old .35.

Large caliber bolt actions don't really get shot all that much---so ammo cost is not much of a factor----I mean---you go sight it in and one or two shots while hunting and that's about it-----basically a box of ammo a year----these aren't varmint rifles that get shot all the time. What I'm getting at is---Does it absolutely have to be a .308------would you be averse to something much bigger and versitile???

I'll be able to give better suggestions once I kinda know more what you're looking for.

[Cabin4]

Iowegan,

I never said a scope amplifies anything. A scope can only transfer what light is available.

The example and equation in section 3 is the correct for the relationship of power magnification to objective lens and light transfer. Power magnification and light are interrelated in the working of a scope. Its that relationship and outcome that are explained in 3. The best example of this is in a low end scope. When you turn the power up the lights seem to go dim due to poor light tranfer capability in the tube. To really show this, take a low end scope like a Bushnell Sportsman in 3-9x32 and put it at 9 power and you will think someone turned the lights off. At 9 power its allows approx 3.5mm of light to your eye. Far less than your eye can accept and its look like the clouds rolled in.

I agree that a larger objective lens lets more light thru, but if its more light that the human eye can accept, it worthless. Its like the bottom of a funnel that can move water at a rate of 1 gallon per miniut but you pour into the top of the funnel at a rate of 1.5 gallons per minuit. In the first minuit, .5 gallons of water will flow over the top of the funnel. In this example, the bottom of the funnel is the human eye and the top of the funnel is the objective lens.

Your points about a fixed power scope having fewer moving parts in correct. However, if someone needs a variable power scope, more the reason to focus on buying a high quality variable power scope.

I'm confused about the issue of distortion in a smaller versus larger objective lens. In my Leupold with a 20mm objective lens is clearer and brighter than my Bushnell with a 40mm lens, edge to edge. I think this is an issue dominated by optical quality and not objective lens size. In theory, same glass to same glass this may be accurate but one can easily overcome this issue with a higher quality optic.

Omaha-BeenGlockin, are you telling Brushhunter to forget about using a 35rem becasue your opinion is that its not adequete for black bear ?  Thats reason why he started this post. Someone told him he needed more gun than a 35rem for black bear. The 35rem, with the correct bullet is totally adequete for black bear.

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

I told him to forget the .35 because it sounds like he really wants a new gun----plus it is VERY limited as far as range---why not get something long range that will take bears AND anything else he would like to go after???

[Cabin4]

Maybe Brushunter does really want a new gun and in this case a bolt. I was under the impression that he felt he needed a new gun based on the info he was told that the 35rem is not good for black bear.

Brush, let us know

[Brushhunter]

Ah, apologies, never meant to start a controversy!  I did indeed start the thread because not one, but two Maine bear guides said that my .35 Remington was marginal for black bear.  One of them said, "don't worry, I'll loan you my [Marlin] .45-70.  This struck me as a bad plan, since my rather limited rifle-shooting skills show best when I'm shooting a rifle I'm really used to (I'm far better with a shotgun, though still nothing to write home about).  The idea of a .308, 7mm, etc. with scope came about because at some point (not this year, but maybe next)  I want to do some hunting out west.  I figure it's good to start early, obtain a rifle I can work with, and practice hard for proficiency of some sort at least. I'm not looking to spend any extra money, but I'm happy to spend what's necessary.  I'm thinking three to four hundred dollars for a decent used rifle and another hundred or hundred and fifty for a scope, plus gunsmithing charges for mounting, bore sighting, etc.  I'm not selling the .35 Remington or giving it up--I love it and have taken several deer with it-- but it strikes me that if I went out west to hunt elk it wouldn't be the optimal weapon:)

If I've created any confusion I am very sorry indeed--I'm NOT knowledgeable in these matters. Ask me how to pass shoot sea ducks from a pitching boat deck, and I'll speak with some authority.  But I didn't grow up on rifles.  Never even had a .22 till I was in my 30's!  Had a .410 and was hunting rabbits when I was 12 though:)  Thanks to all for being willing to share.  I'm sure that, as with everything else in life, opinions vary.  I'm grateful for all the ideas and good advice I've gotten.  Of course, in the end, it's up to me to choose, and choose wisely.  You are all helping me to do just that.

Thanks so much,

Brushhunter

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

Again---how much gun do you think you can handle???  I have a specific one in mind but might be a bit much---the price is very right for what it is.

Saw it in the newest issue of the Shotgun News that I picked up yesterday.

[Brushhunter]

My impression is that rifles bigger than .308 might pose recoil problems for me.  Not sure, I'd have to try it.  The combo of scope and rifle would have to run $650-700 to make it realistic.

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

Ron Shirk has these in .338 for $309 or $319---have to check the ad again???-----after shipping and dealer fees you are looking at about $350 to $360 worst case.

http://www.savagearms.com/centerfire/weather_warrior/116fss.htm

Add a Leupold VX-2 for like $260 and rings and bases for $50 or so.

You are looking at 360+260+50=$670 and you are good to go-----and will be able to drop anything that walks in North America----for a lifetime.


This is all NIB----I know its not a wood stock----can't have everything I guess----wood is inferior on a serious hunting tool anyway.

[Cabin4]

Brushunter,

I would agree that the 35rem on an elk hunt out west would be a limitation. But not for black bear in Maine.

I really would like to know who the 2 guides are that said the 35rem is not good for bear. Those 2 guides really hit me as 2 that are either trying to inflat the mass of a Maine black bear or for soem reason justurge feel the urge to make the whole thing far more than it really is.

I have seen guys & women take black bear without any problems with 20 ga slug guns, 30-30, 257 roberts and 25-06. The 35rem is a better close in killer than all of these except for maybe the 20ga slug gun and that would have to be with some of the new premium 3 inch slugs.

The first 3 days of deer rifle season here in PA are the only 3 days for bear. This year on the opener I likly will have my 30-30. If I see a bear from my blind inside of 75 yards, I'm going for the kill as long as I can put it in his boiler room. And I won't feel that this is undergunned in any way. If I do my part, that bear will be dead not far from the point of the hit. The 35rem can top this. IMHO

[Brushhunter]

Well, thank you both very much.  What the guides' motives were is beyond me.  I'm not one to criticize though.  At any rate, I'll check out the other offers, think about things, and we shall see.  Meanwhile, I've received some wonderful hellp here and I feel lucky to have had it:)