Author Topic: "tactical" hunting rifle with some additional observations  (Read 2619 times)

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Offline targshooter

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"tactical" hunting rifle with some additional observations
« on: December 05, 2008, 03:27:17 AM »
Occasionally there are posts in this forum about which hunting firearm would make a good "tactical" firearm. To me, the tactical adjective indicates a situation where one must use the firearm to defend one's person until escape from the situation is possible or the threat is neutralized by arriving authorities or direct use of the tactical weapon at hand.

Most likely, this is not a "home defense" scenario, but rather a situation where the attack could easily be somewhere other than the home front, at a point where familiarity with your surroundings and the ability to call for help easily are not present.

With all the government warnings about terrorist attacks my thoughts go to "what if" scenarios where I am caught in a survivable situation under a random terrorist attack. My only interest is to escape and evade. I am not there to act as a supressive force against the terrorists, such is the responsibility of government. I would not arm myself if there are government authorities on site. However, if our government authorities are neutralized or absent I would arm myself with a weapon to aid in surviving my escape and evade attempt.

Certainly no single opponent will successfully counter the efforts of multiple terrorists armed with automatic weapons and rocket propelled grenades. However, in escaping and evading, a weapon may be needed to counter the threat posed by a pair of terrorists (or a single one if you are lucky) standing between one and successful escape. This is where the weapon needs to be one that the user is familiar with and capable of shooting well on close point targets at ranges of 100 and under yards.

Why 100 yards? If I have that kind of distance or greater between me and an armed threat I can hide and evade or run and dodge in an all out effort to leave the threat behind me. In all likelihood they can shoot and miss all day at such range. In all reality, at that range you will be out of the mission interest of terrorists, as they will be focusing on completing their defined "satement" mission.

So, what do I pick? I want a firearm that is chambered for a cartridge requiring a single hit to disable a determined terrorist. The terrorist is not someone who will succumb easily, they appear to be quite willing to fight and die standing (as long as possible) for their cause. I therefore choose the .308 because of its power and my ability to recover quickly from its recoil in my chosen rifle. Obviously, any cartridge in this range of power will suffice. Close in, the large pistol calibers (like the .44 Mag) are quite adequate.

My choice of firearm is a semi-auto or pump. Levers and bolts are slower than these two actions. I want quick shot recovery and the ability to get onto target with a second or third shot quickly. I view this somewhat like a bear attack. You get two shots if lucky, with a third being a finisher as needed. Otherwise, you get space in the obits. The hunting rifles have been designed to cycle soft point ammo, the military style rifle for FMJ, another consideration. I have chosen my Browning BAR Lightweight Stalker in .308.

I would not use one of the military style weapons I own because of the caliber (5.56x45) or their slowness to point shooting relative to the BAR, usually due to the size and weight of the "battle" rifle (as with the FAL) or its configuration (I shoot faster with a conventional stock than I do with a pistol grip). Remember, this is not prolonged combat, but escape and evade. The handling qualities of the BAR for hunting make it a great choice for this purpose. I would also choose a Remington 7600 if I owned one. For me, this particular pump rifle points very well and has very fast shot recovery time. I have a low power (2.5x) scope on the BAR, ideal for the woodland hunting I do as well as for this type of application. I also use hunting ammunition, as it hits and expands; good for target neutralization as well as a safety factor in not hitting an innocent.

So, even though a little off the topic of this forum, I consider the semi-auto and pump hunting rifles capable of serving both as fine hunting and tactical mission choices for the situations I may experience.

Some additional observations after shooting and handling the BAR.
The BAR magazine is very well designed, hats off to Browning on this. For a scope I chose the Leupold VariX-I 1-4x 22mm; it is light, small and presents an excellent target picture up to 300 meters when set on 2x (my favorite setting). The following observations can be made after handling and practicing with the rifle/sight system:
1] Accuracy is good enough that 300 meter offhand shooting is meaningful. As the barrel heats from repetitive shots, rifle does not change the POI enough to destroy accuracy at this range.
2] The magazine is easy to top off and reload completely; it readily accepts and holds 4 cartridges, functioning properly.
3] The rifle can easily have a round in the chamber and a fully loaded magazine in place and function properly. Thus, 5 shots are easily maintained.
4] The iron sights are accurate and presented well by the firearm as it is shouldered.
5] The rifle is well balanced; the addition of the scope does not impact the center of gravity or the quick handling characteristics of the system.
6] After almost 200 shots nothing has loosened and there is no need to retighten any screws to maintain accuracy.
So, in summary; the BAR represents a firearm that meets my requirements as outlined above. There is no detachable magazine to loose, 5 shots are easily kept available and accuracy is good.
As pointed out by others, there are plenty of viable alternatives. This is my selection based on wanting a semi-automatic action and accepting 5 shots as my maximum needed reserve.

Offline charles p

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Re: "tactical" hunting rifle
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2008, 04:10:27 PM »
Saw an ad for tactical socks, belts, shoes, caps, and underwear this year.  I suppose it is the in thing to be tactical and look tactical.

Offline targshooter

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Re: "tactical" hunting rifle
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2008, 06:23:26 AM »
I was not condemning those that want to use their military style rifles, just writing a response to the tactical applications question I see in this forum. Some of the civil disorders visited on US citizens by wild eyed, opportunistic and vicious mobs (post Katrina and the Watts riot to name just two) may actually call for the use of a military type weapon.

Offline Cheesehead

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Re: "tactical" hunting rifle
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2008, 06:36:39 AM »
I think you hit the nail on the head. The BAR is a quality semi that is very accurate. The 308 is the near perfect medium power round that is very destructive with soft point ammo. This combo of rifle a cartridge would work for deer, terrorists and angry mobs. My experience with the 308 and the BAR make me believe this is true.

Cheese
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Offline 1911crazy

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Re: "tactical" hunting rifle
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2008, 02:19:44 PM »
I'd go with the russian izhmash saiga in 223 or 308 with its 16" chrome lined bore and its ak47 design it been battle proven and hard to beat plus its easy to clean and about as dependable and reliable as we can get.  Its still under $500 price tag is hard to beat for this awesome rifle too.  The russian saiga can do it all from a plinker, to hunting to a shtf situation it can handle it all no matter what weather its in too.

My saiga in 308 benchrested at 100yds using south african 308 ball FMJ surplus ammo will shoot 1 1/2" groups if i do my part.  You get the reliability and dependability of an ak47 in a 308 thats as accurate as any other rifle with no scope.  I think its the hottest buy right now.

Offline billy_56081

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Re: "tactical" hunting rifle
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2008, 03:15:04 PM »
I'd take a BAR in 300 win mag as a serious long range "tactical" rifle
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline Cheesehead

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Re: "tactical" hunting rifle
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2008, 06:12:07 AM »
I believe the FNAR would be a very good hunting, tactical rifle. See link.

http://gunblast.com/FN-AR.htm

Cheese
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Offline mannyrock

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Re: "tactical" hunting rifle
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2008, 12:35:11 PM »

  As to the choice of the BAR lightweight auto, doesn't this rife use the swingdown floor plate, with the little 4 round detachable magazine, that is clumbsy to pull down, clumbsy to pull off, and clumbsy to reload?   If so, then in my opinion, it is simply too slow to reload to be a suitable tactical piece.  (Or, am I wrong and does it now have a true drop off box magazine?)

   For the parameters you have described, and in particular being comfortable with a 100 yard max distance, the .30-30 Marlin is a much better tactical piece.    (As far as zombie use, it has plenty of power out to 200 yards.  Just sight it in for four inches high at 100 yards.).  You can reload 7 rounds in the Marlin much quicker than you can reload 4 rounds in the BAR.

   And, if you are a die hard .308 fan, then the Savage lever action, with a detachable mag, is quicker to reload than the BAR.  (The Rem 7600, with an after market 10 round steel extended magazine, would also be a better tactical choice.)

    In a true tactical situation, you would probably fire off those 4 rounds from your BAR in about 4 seconds, and then be holding an empty weapon, and looking for a place to hide for 15 to 30 seconds while you fumble to reload.

  Just my thoughts.

   (P.S.-  I fired a lightweight BAR in .308 about four years ago, and it was a joy to shoot.  Just way too slow to reload.)

Mannyrock.

Offline mannyrock

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Re: "tactical" hunting rifle
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2008, 12:39:54 PM »

  P.S.-  Who says that a .308 lightweight semi-auto or pump is quicker in terms of aimed follow-up shots than a lever action .30-30?  News Flash- They aren't!

Offline BBF

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Re: "tactical" hunting rifle
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2008, 02:45:45 AM »
Ruger or Marlin makes a 9mm Camp Gun :-\ or on the cheaper side a M-1 Carbine with a BIG magazine
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: "tactical" hunting rifle
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2008, 01:16:16 PM »
THere is a tactical version of the BAR out there somewhere. I cannot for the life of me find a lin k to it on the internet. I looked at it online before ad it appears to be a very nice system.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline 1911crazy

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Re: "tactical" hunting rifle
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2008, 01:33:31 PM »
Have you ever shot an AK47 in 308?  You should try a russian izhmash saiga.  You won't believe how fast this gun can spit out the 308 rounds and there accurate too.

Go to;  you tube and search for "saiga"

Can you bump fire your lever?

Offline mannyrock

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Re: "tactical" hunting rifle
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2008, 03:51:25 PM »
Billy,

  I think you are talking about the new FNFH semi-auto rifle, which is based upon the BAR commercial action.  But, this is not a hunting rifle.  It is a big time, main stream, 9 pound, military/police assault weapon, which has a pistol grip stock, and a 10 round detachable box magaine.   It also costs about $1,700.   So, I think this falls outside of the realm of a hunting rifle that could serve as a tactical rifle. 

Regards,

Mannyrock

Offline billy_56081

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Re: "tactical" hunting rifle
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2008, 04:21:54 PM »
Billy,

  I think you are talking about the new FNFH semi-auto rifle, which is based upon the BAR commercial action.  But, this is not a hunting rifle.  It is a big time, main stream, 9 pound, military/police assault weapon, which has a pistol grip stock, and a 10 round detachable box magaine.   It also costs about $1,700.   So, I think this falls outside of the realm of a hunting rifle that could serve as a tactical rifle. 

Regards,

Mannyrock

It actually sounds like just what I am looking for, my current varmint barreled 220 swift weighs 13 lbs. This might be perfect. Just want to see how durable this rifle is and accuracy.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline BBF

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Re: "tactical" hunting rifle
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2008, 07:56:58 AM »
Long range tactical?? Well you can't beat the 50 BMG for that!!
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Offline Barbegris

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Re: "tactical" hunting rifle
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2008, 07:00:30 PM »

  P.S.-  Who says that a .308 lightweight semi-auto or pump is quicker in terms of aimed follow-up shots than a lever action .30-30?  News Flash- They aren't!

I love lever actions and they can be fast but......news flash!  Semi-auto is faster and then the pump followed closely by the lever.

Offline smong2000

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Re: "tactical" hunting rifle
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2008, 12:30:15 PM »
Nobody even mentioned the Benelli R1...I had one in 30-06 and could hold 5 shots in an 8x10 sheet at 50 yds firing at 'real' BAR speed (well almost)  ;D.  It was 7lbs and built like nothing else i've seen quality wise.  I think it makes current and recent Brownings look cheap.  It's $1K, but lots of calibers and options, even some hi caps mags available.   It was so-so accuracy wise, barely get to 1 MOA with mine but talk about firepower in 300WSM or .300 Winmag... ;)

Offline Cement Man

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Re: "tactical" hunting rifle with some additional observations
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2009, 01:14:59 PM »
some other options to think about....

http://www.remington7400.com/index.php
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Offline mannyrock

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Re: "tactical" hunting rifle with some additional observations
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2009, 08:18:04 AM »
RE: Remington 7400

   A nice rifle, but loading and unloading the magazine is finicky and time consuming, and the mags only hold 4 rounds.    10 rounders are available, with mixed results.

   And, I'm guessing that the tolerances are so tight, that after 20 rapid fire shots, it might temporarily lock up from heat.

Mannyrock

Offline Cement Man

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Re: "tactical" hunting rifle with some additional observations
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2009, 10:11:04 AM »
RE: Remington 7400

   A nice rifle, but loading and unloading the magazine is finicky and time consuming, and the mags only hold 4 rounds.    10 rounders are available, with mixed results.

   And, I'm guessing that the tolerances are so tight, that after 20 rapid fire shots, it might temporarily lock up from heat.

Mannyrock

Sorry, I didn't clear that up.  I was referring to the 7600 modifications they do (shown on the same page) as another, (maybe better) option.  I am skeptical about the 7400 as well and well aware of the potential problems; and overall, sporting arms platforms really don't make good "battle rifles".  For the prices that this outfit charges and the mods they perform, I would be interested in the performance and reliability of their 7400 modifications though.  Looks interesting and maybe they do better than you or I would expect. 
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Offline mannyrock

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Re: "tactical" hunting rifle with some additional observations
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2009, 01:56:15 PM »

  Cement,

   The 7600 is another fine rifle, but it would have the same issue with the magazine (finiky, plus that release lever button is pretty small).  Also, if you don't really slam that slide back and forth with authority, it will jam (short-shuck). (I'm just the kind of guy who would get distracted in a conflict and short shuck one.)  Also, pumping with authority while in the prone position would take even more concentration.

   The new 7615, in .223, has a large capacity magazine, but you would still have the short shuck issue.  The 7615 also comes in .308, but only with a four or five round magazine (I think.)

 Mannyrock




Offline Cement Man

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Re: "tactical" hunting rifle with some additional observations
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2009, 03:08:18 PM »
Well, it was just another option to discuss.  Of course with any system you need to develop your proficiency and do the maintenance.  The 870 and numerous other pump guns have been patrol, dangerous game, and combat weapons for 90 years now. Apparently with some success, huh?

I have a 7615 SPS.  It takes AR mags and the mag release button is quite large and handy - in approximately the same position as the AR.  Neglect an AR - you will have problems.  Short shuck a pump you will have problems.  Stuff your hi-cap magazine to capacity - you likely might have problems.  Get too rattled with either - you will have problems.  I've seen it all happen.

I'm not selling 7400's, 7600's or the like, I merely pointed out that someone of some apparent substance works on these rifles in a way that looks to make them more adaptable for tactical use.  And, I have heard some fairly good feedback on their work.  I thought the original post was about sporting arms adapted for "tactical" use, and that the mag capacity was acceptable for the criteria established by the original poster. 

I haven't seen any .308 7615's.  Can't recall hearing of them before.

If you're not a pump-capable person, it's good that you know it.  Be safe.
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POLITICIANS SHOULD BE LIMITED TO TWO TERMS - ONE IN OFFICE AND ONE IN PRISON.... Illinois already does this.

Offline mannyrock

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Re: "tactical" hunting rifle with some additional observations
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2009, 09:22:10 AM »
Cement,

  Excellent points.  Thanks.



Mannyrock