Author Topic: Duplex loads  (Read 4108 times)

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Offline Halftime

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Duplex loads
« on: July 21, 2007, 04:41:27 AM »
Hi Veral,
 A month or so ago you mentioned duplex loads under the heading of 45 Auto loads. Would you please elaborate. The slowest powder I've used with 45 auto is AA#7 which is very nice with just a little soot left behind. Thanks.

James P.

Offline Veral

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Re: Duplex loads
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2007, 02:04:17 PM »
I'll first explain the reasons for using duplex loads.
 1 .    In the 45 ACP loads described it was to get a slow recoil surge, obtained by a long low pressure push rather than the normal sharp rap produced by single powder charges, like your A#7, which leaves some unburned powder.  My duplex loads did too, but produced exceptional power at very low pressure.

 2. Duplex loads are always used to get a slow burning or hard to ignite powder burning, or make it burn clean so will most often be used in rifles with considerable case capacity. They will probably be found most useful in making surplus cannon powder work in cartridges where they don't develop enough pressure/velocity to make them usable.

  Follow this one safety rule and you won't get in trouble.  ALWAYS COMPRESS THE POWDER. ALWAYS. ALWAYS!!

  The mechanics are as follows.

  If a full case of powder is too slow to develop desired pressure, reduce the main slow powder charge and add a faster burning powder under it, so the total load is compressed.  Do this gradually and you'll need to test fire each load immediately.  If you have to go to a range to shoot, forget it.  You will be open for confusion and trouble.  For an example:  I bought a bunch of very slow burning cannon powder which would only push 30-06 bullets to about 1800 fps with a lot of unburned powder.  Lets say a compressed load was 60 gr.  I reduced it by 2 grains, and dropped in 2 grains of Unique over the primer.  Better speed and pressure, less unburned powder, but still very low velocity.  Repeat, but put in 4 gr Unique.  The fast powder can be anything relitively fast, for 30-06 it could be from 700X up to 4198.  The object is to get enough fast powder in to raise cartridge pressure up to a good burning rate for the slow powder, after which it burns along smoothly and clean.  So, for illustration purposes, perhaps it required a final load of 10 gr Unique and 50 of the slow powder to get good working pressure and velocity.  It would have taken perhaps half a case of 4198 to do the same thing, or perhaps 6 gr of Bullseye, 231, 700 X etc very fast powder.     Exactly the same thing as using kindling to start large wood burning in a wood stove, only it happens quicker.  In the case of the above 30-06, slow surplus powder loads, I got full power and clean burning loads using duplex, using a powder that I had no other use for, and it was EXTREMELY inexpensive!  I didn't try to exceed what I could get with single powder loads. (Note that slow and fast powders very greatly in density. This means the fast powder charge increase will be different than the slow powder reduction, as I stated in my illustration above.  When you reduce the big charge, put in enough fast powder to get compression.0   

  With proper powder selection it is possible to develop loads which will exceed the power of any single powder charge, as I did with the 45 ACP,  in any cartridge.  But probably the average well experienced re-loader will find duplex loads most useful sometime in the future when powder selection may be from large military shells found laying around, etc.

   Between you and me and the gatepost, ol Veral has never been to a shooting range, ever.  Drove past a few, but never stopped in or shot at one.  Most of my life, I've lived in places where I can load a cartridge, step out the door and pop the primer.  That makes a lot of playing easy to do, and development of duplex loads or whatever, quick and easy.  If I hadn't been able to load and shoot this way, LBT would have never gotten off the ground, and I wouldn't be writing this forum.

  If any of you have more questions regarding duplex loads,, throw them in and I'll answer.  The above is quite brief for the subject, but I can't offhand think of any more answers till I know what your questions are.
Veral Smith

Offline jimkim

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Re: Duplex loads
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2009, 03:17:30 AM »
 I know this is an old topic. Have you done any of this with a 30-30? What powders did you use? A friend and I have been using IMR-4350 for a while with good results. He has even built a rig that fits on his tumbler. He puts charged cases in it and turns it on for a few minutes. Then he adds more powder. I'm not that brave.  I have only been loading since the mid-eighties and he has done it since the early-sixties so he has a better grasp of what you can get away with or maybe he is just getting old and has lost his mind.

 I read an article recently about Hornady Leverlution ammo. The author pulled a bullet and inspected the powder under a microscope. It looked like two different powders. That piqued my interest in this subject and a google search led me to this article and your forum.

So, back to the purpose of my post, have you tried this with the 30-30 and what were the results?

Offline Veral

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Re: Duplex loads
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2009, 05:59:12 PM »
  Yes, I've tried it on 30-30 but like your friend, "Maybe I'm getting so old I've lost my mind"!
   I can't remember what results were as my playing with it and duplex loads was probably 25 years ago and I didn't keep records.   If you noticed the reasoning behind by duplex load writeing is to be able to make use of powders which are too slow burning for the cartridge, and with it I recommend putting a fairly fast burning powder on the primer and compressing the slower powder on top, so they don't mix.

  I'm sure extra powerful loads could be worked up using what apprears to be the Hornady method of mixing powders, but I never messed with that as I didn't want seperation to change the buring rate as a hopper full was used up.

  If you want to make the 30-30 scream, the best powder I've used is 748 pushing my 170 LCFN at about 2400 fps.  Pressures appeared to be mild in all respects in my Marlin, but it sure peps the old cartridge up!
Veral Smith

Offline jimkim

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Re: Duplex loads
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2009, 12:23:53 AM »
Hahahaha! No offense intended. My buddy is brilliant. He just scares me. Thanks.

Offline cooper

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Re: Duplex loads
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2009, 10:31:49 AM »
Veral, do you have any specific experience or comments regarding blackpowder cartriges with duplex smokeless loads?

Last year at the Quigley match I heard that some shooters (mostly using Sharps 45/70s) were loading duplex with a case full of "surplus .50 caliber powder" using a kicker of 4227.  They were doing VERY well, and without having to deal with fillers.

Accurate Arms' #8700 is supposed to be similar to 50 cal machine gun powder.  I'd like to try this in my 40 cals. -- 40/65, 40/70, and 40/90, but I'm a bit nervous about making up a load just from something I heard at the range.

I use duplex blackpowder loads with a smokeless kicker (RL-7), and it works great, but I've never used 2 smokeless powders.



 

Offline Veral

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Re: Duplex loads
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2009, 05:38:54 PM »
  Those boys at the range are singing on the same page as I am, book right side up and everything!

  There is no danger as long as you follow these guidelines.
  1. ALWAYS used compressed loads.  You are thinking 870 powder, a good one, (but so is any too slow powder) as it's far too slow for the 45-70.    Whatever amount of powder it takes to get a lightly compressed load, reduce it a few grains  then drop in enough of the fast powder you want to use to get compression again.  4227 will be on the slow end, but it's great, except you'll have to use more to get the slow powder burning.  If you were to use a fast pistol powder as 'kindling' it will take far less.  Think of it like starting a fire in the wood stove or a campfire.  Little stuff you can light easy burning under larger slow burning stuff. 
  2.  If your first load doesn't give enough pressure or leaves too much of the slow powder unburned, up the fast powder charge, decrease the slow powder just enough so there is compression and try again.

  This will give you extreme flexibility in working up loads for many cartridges using powders which are low cost or that you have and have not been able to use previously.

  As I stated previously.  I don't think of it as a way to wring maximum power from a cartridge, though it will do that if the reloader is wise in judging pressure.  I think of it as a way to get useful, clean burning loads from powders which are too slow for the cartridge, normally with lower than max pressure.

  About reducing the heavy slow powder charge.  Set your measure for the compressed load, and measure the distence from end of case to where the powder stands.  Keep that case full of powder to charge your duplex load during load workup. -  Now, to work up your duplex load, drop the fast powder charge you chose to use in a primed case, pour in enough slow powder to match the fill depth of your compressed slow powder load.  Weigh the powder remaining in that case, subtract the amount left from the full compressed charge and set your measure for that amount.  A wordy explaination but the process is simple.  I like having two powder measures set up when loading duplex loads, but one of the charges can be weighed if you only have one measure.
Veral Smith

Offline 45x4

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Re: Duplex loads
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2009, 02:27:38 PM »
Guys:

I find this topic interesting, but have been unable to find the first post refered to in the first post here..............I found one where Vearl reports using heavy charges of H110 behind a 260gr slug in the 45acp.............but nothing on duplex.  Help me out here.....I what to learn, too!!!!

Offline crash87

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Re: Duplex loads
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2009, 03:57:37 PM »
FYI, I do not believe H870 (Hodgdon) is still being produced, at least its not cataloged. As far as Accurate 8700, thats been discountued. I got that from The company when I called to see about some load info last summer. Hodgdon does have H50BMG (extruded) and US869 (spherical), probably,replacing H870 with one of these, although I can't be certain. You might be able to find what your looking for in old stock somewhere? I've searched the net but to no avail, so I've moved on. CRASH87

Offline Veral

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Re: Duplex loads
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2009, 03:34:16 PM »
  I believe I have written about duplex loads on several posts but have no clue which ones.  Not to worry, this one has enough information to get you up to speed safely.

  As for Hodgen producing powder.  To my knowledge, they never have, but buy from other manufactures and package with their own label.  Much of their powder is surplus, or discontinued, which they have bought in large enough quantities to make repackaging feasable.  870 was a Winchester powder, discontinued quite a few years ago.  I think I bought the last in new cans at least 25 years ago.
  Non of this is to cut Hodgen down in any way, as I have used their powder more than any other single brand, because it is always top quality and has traditionally been lowest in price.  Some of my experimenting with duplex loads was from cannon powder bought from Thunderbird Cartridge Co in Phoenix, which I don't believe is in business any more, or they may have moved.  If I'm wrong on this please correct me, someone!
Veral Smith

Offline jimkim

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Re: Duplex loads
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2009, 12:22:15 AM »
I googled Thunderbird Cartridge Co. Here is their link http://www.tbirdammo.com/Thunderbird%20Cartridge%20Company,%20Inc..html