Effect of Sub-zero temperatures.

[Blaster]

Anyone here care to comment on what possible effect sub-zero temperatures may have on our scale model cannon/mortar barrels/tubes?  With 34 years of service, I retired from a major Railroad about 15 years ago and do remember seeing many freight train "slow orders" for freight trains operating in the Midwestern States due to sub-zero temps as well as temps over 100 degrees.  As I remember, those slow orders dictated that the train should not exceed somewhere between 5 and 15 MPH for a prescribed distance.  Although it's difficult to believe, due to the hardness/toughness of track rail, the extreme cold in addition to the weight of a heavy freight train could cause the rail to become quite brittle.  Do any of our resident experts in the field of metallurgy know the potential problems that could possibly be caused by extreme temps on our beloved BP cannon/mortar barrels/tubes   Thanks!
Blaster (Bob in So. CO)

[dan610324]

all metal get brittle when its cold , but I dont know exactly why .
if you take an small steel bar and try to bend it when its minus 35 degrees celsius it will probably brake in 2 pieces instead .

I dont have the knowledge to explain why , but hopefully some other member can .

[Artilleryman]

I can't your question about the metal other than the obvious brittle when cold.  I can saw that the velocities are lower with lower temperatures.

[Cat Whisperer]

I remember my boss saying something about aircraft landing gear at -30 and -60dF.  Brittle was one term used.  (WWII aircraft)

[RocklockI]

FWIW Myth Busters has tried to brake hammers ,old hammers ,hard hammers new hammers ,and frozen hammers .

Nothing shattered except the handles .

Who's going to shoot a cannon below 0 ? That is why they called off the war thru the winters .

[Cat Whisperer]

...
Who's going to shoot a cannon below 0 ?
...

Most anyone who's expeienced cabin-feaver from being in below 0 temps for weeks on end and needs a little entertainment.  Did I mention I grew up in Iowa?  Taken the mortar out many times in deep snow and on frozen rivers.

[RocklockI]

Tell me about cabin fever. I have actually been shooting my Doms Parrot indoors !

If you glue a toilet paper roll about 3" long to a golfball . A #5 (yellow) CCI/ Rem power load will shoot it across the room into a chair backstop . Sort of badmitton style

It's loud and shreds cabin fever instantly , w/o getting cold .

Oh yea ,I can tell ya bout the fever too ,never had it myself though  ....where's my Golfball and TP roll ?

[Double D]

Rocklock, do you live alone?   

[GGaskill]

Cold weather definitely affects steel brittleness.  During WW II, there were Liberty ship sinkings caused by cold weather in the North Atlantic.  The ships actually broke in half due to the steel failing in the extreme cold.

[dominick]

    Blaster,   It depends on what type of metal the barrel is made of.    Actually, metal increases in tensile strength with lower temperatures.  It also become more brittle. 
     Low carbon [.05 to .22% ] is good to -40 degrees and higher carbon to -100 degrees.  High Cromium steel and cast iron become more brittle when in sub zero temps and should be avoided.  High Nickel steel is best for low temperatures.   Non ferrous metals such as Naval Brass, Bronze, Copper, Aluminum, have an increase in tensile strength and remains relatively un-affected in brittleness in lower temps. 

   Liberty ships were built from steel with a high Sulfur content.   Welding high Sulfur steel causes embrittlement and the ships also had a stress riser [design flaw] in the deck at the corners of the main cargo hold opening. Combined with the cold temperatures of the North Atlantic, they broke at that juncture [at the welds] and sunk in minutes.   They fixed the problem by riveting a 40 foot long band of 1" thick plate down each side of the ships.  After the war,  the remaining ships were sold to Onassis for pennies on the dollar and remained in use for several years.    Dom

[Victor3]

 Blaster,

 I'm no metallurgist nor train expert, but I'm curious as to how going slow would prevent breakage of rails, cold or hot. Are you sure it didn't have something to do with lubrication viscosity, or maybe a problem with braking efficiency?

 I can't see anything bad happening with the rails on the high-temp end. On the cold end though, stressed thermite welds might present a problem due to contraction of rail segments (which may already be stressed by settling of the rail bed or ground movement). But again, I can't see how going slow would to do much more than delay the inevitable for a few minutes (?)

 If not accounted for in design, radical ambient temperature changes can cause failures of joints in very large, tightly assembled steel structures due to expansion/contraction.

 In small items like cannon barrels this does not present any problem. Normal ambient temperature variations (+150/-50 degrees F) that iron/steel see regularly are not even close to the "critical" points that would alter the strength properties of the material.

 If it were a problem, there wouldn't be a single airplane that could fly in both summer and winter...

 

[Blaster]

...
Who's going to shoot a cannon below 0 ? ...

Tim said,
Most anyone who's expeienced cabin-feaver from being in below 0 temps for weeks on end and needs a little entertainment.  Did I mention I grew up in Iowa?  Taken the mortar out many times in deep snow and on frozen rivers.

Well, I won't be firing my stuff unless the weather is just right - not too hot, not too cold, and not even a threat of rain,  so I guess I could be called a "fair weather only" shooter.  With the forest/wild fire threat here in southern Colorado throughout the entire year, when there's snow on the ground, that's about the only really excellent time to do my BP shooting but don't like to have to put on three layers of clothes to do so.  Tim, those Iowa Winters can be brutal, I know very well!

[Blaster]

Rocklock, do you live alone?   

Looks like if he doesn't, he soon will be if he continues that type "indoor" shooting.

[Blaster]

Blaster,

 I'm no metallurgist nor train expert, but I'm curious as to how going slow would prevent breakage of rails, cold or hot. Are you sure it didn't have something to do with lubrication viscosity, or maybe a problem with braking efficiency?

In thinking about those slow orders, I believe since the threat of rail failure due to the possible brittleness caused extreme cold, those slow orders were most likely to make certain the train was moving at a very slow speed so IF there was a derailment, there would be somewhat less chance of the train sustaining very heavy damage due to speed.  Make sense?

In the Summer time when the temps are extremely high,  rail kinks can be experienced.  This is due to the rails suffering extreme expansion and being out of alignment (rail spread) where the gauge between the two rails was much wider than the train could navigate, which in turn could derail the train onto the ties.  Just my thoughts.  Geez, I thought there'd be some other railroad guys on here besides me.  Of course I worked in the RR office so didn't have any experience with the track and mechanics of railroading. 

[RocklockI]

Rocklock, do you live alone?   

Looks like if he doesn't, he soon will be if he continues that type "indoor" shooting.

Are you kidding I'm married to Molly Pitcher ...which may not bode well for me .IIRC

the balls will fly @20' nose foward the blank load is pretty well muffled .

I cannt really complian about our Colo. winters .Tracy Mike and I have been shooting 4 times since Jan. with much good work at the Seacoast Artillery World Headquarters . Many sabots are made ,World issuses solved ,And just plain ol pontifications.

I wouldn't want you guys to think that there is anything involved in "Indoor Cannon Shooting" that isn't hard science . It's really no fun at all  . Please dont try this at home , I am ...what you call a ..umm, "a ...indoors cannon shooter ."

There is no doubt that I am not the first , but am inventing an Official ICS handshake ,and claim all the glory for myself .

rocklockI ,founder ,president ,owner and sole member of the ICS club of Longmont Co.

As I witnessed similar behavor but w/ a 155mm Long Tom indoors there could be another franchise comming along soon  , The Broomfield Chapter !

motto : "Dont make me yank this lanyard !"   

Kinda reminds me of a fly fishing saying ...A jerk on one end of the line waiting for a jerk on the other end .....sorta...

[Ex 49'er]

Will there be official ICS franchises available? It would be advantageous to get in on the ground floor. What about secret passwords?  

[Rickk]

I remember when I lived alone in a trailer park, sitting on my favorite easy chair, watching NASCAR on TV, and shooting wasps that snuck indoors with primer loaded cases (no powder or bullets) in a Ruger revolver one hot Sunday afternoon.

There is an old rule about using axes in the cold to warm them up first to prevent metal breakage. Either stick the axe head under ones coat for a while or take a few dozen light swings into softwood to let friction warm it up first.

I would think you could run some warm water thru the bore first to warm up the barrel. Of course, making warm water outside would be a bit of a chore.

As for me, I can't stand the cold any more than the steel can. I'm afraid I might fracture as well, so I'm waiting untill spring. 

Rick

[RocklockI]

Will there be official ICS franchises available? It would be advantageous to get in on the ground floor. What about secret passwords?  

You're an offical ICS owner, operator ,President of your very own chapter

[Terry C.]

I would think you could run some warm water thru the bore first to warm up the barrel. Of course, making warm water outside would be a bit of a chore.

Not if you drink enough coffee...

[Evil Dog]

What about secret passwords?

If he told you it would no longer be a secret.

[Rickk]

I didn't think about coffee. Need to find a place with free refills.

[Cat Whisperer]

FWIW Myth Busters has tried to brake hammers ,old hammers ,hard hammers new hammers ,and frozen hammers .
...

Not much faith in Myth Busters - just because they didn't means just that, THEY didn't.

[Double D]

10-4 on Mythbusters...they didn't think splinters were all that lethal.

[JeffG]

Just got back from a cannon outing in the snow yesterday.  +15 degrees, very little wind chill. I wouldn't waste coffee to swab a bore, but I was thinking about running it through my kidneys first ....actually I used freeze proof windhield washer fluid, it worked great. We extended the time between shots for safety.

[Victor3]

In thinking about those slow orders, I believe since the threat of rail failure due to the possible brittleness caused extreme cold, those slow orders were most likely to make certain the train was moving at a very slow speed so IF there was a derailment, there would be somewhat less chance of the train sustaining very heavy damage due to speed.  Make sense?

In the Summer time when the temps are extremely high,  rail kinks can be experienced. 

 Yes, that makes sense.

 I was thinking of what could cause rail damage by the weight of the train combined with speed, not that the train might encounter already damaged rails.

 I didn't know about the hot weather kinking problem.

 I took these pics of a thermite weld in Antelope Valley, CA last October. I was surprised to see this century-old-tech still being used to join rail sections. Thermite welds being more like cast iron than steel, I figured they would always use resistance or arc welding nowadays...





 I wonder if thermite welding was ever used to repair damaged cannons in the field?

[Cannoneer]

Just got back from a cannon outing in the snow yesterday.  +15 degrees, very little wind chill. I wouldn't waste coffee to swab a bore, but I was thinking about running it through my kidneys first ....actually I used freeze proof windhield washer fluid, it worked great. We extended the time between shots for safety.

Jeff,

 The ww fluid sounds like a good idea; your first thought, probably not.

[Rickk]

Thermite welding is not quite up to snuff for repairing cannons. It is not all that controlled of a process, and doesn't really penetrate all that deep. It is more of a surface weld than a penetrating weld.

The process involves clamping a ceramic mold over the items to be joined. The "Thermite", which for steel welding is iron oxide and aluminum in powdered form, is contained in an upper cavity of the mold. There is a thin disk of steel separating the two cavities. The thermite is ignited. Magnesium powder is often used as a preignitor. The aluminum burns, extracting oxygen from the iron oxide. The molten result is almost pure iron, which burns the the thin metal disk and fills the cavity beneath with molten iron.

The process only takes a second or so. There is little time for the base metals to be heated anywhere but near the exposed surfaces. Lacking a pre-heat, the weld isn't the highest quality. However, it takes very little equipment to do it and the results are very repeatable without needed any special skills or training or equipment.

As a side note, "Thermite" comes in more than one flavor, depending on what you wish to weld. Copper Thermite for instance, which uses copper oxide instead of iron oxide, is used for joining copper to copper or copper to steel when making electrical connections (usually ground connections to ground rods or to steel building structures).

Of course, like anything pyrotechnic, it is sorta fun to use ;-)

Rick

[Cat Whisperer]

Excellent description - thanks!

My only experience with Thermite were the 'grenades' and other rectangular forms used to destroy top secret safes.  The big ones covered the top of the safe.  IF needed it would burn straight down through the safe, TS contents and all!