Author Topic: Muzzleloaders and Special Seasons (Read 1467 times)

simonkenton · « **on:** August 21, 2003, 06:20:06 AM »

Twenty years ago my pal Bud and I participated in the muzzle loading hunt on Cumberland Island.
Cumberland Island is off the Ga. coast. Very beautiful, huge oak trees and Spanish moss, it is not developed. It is owned by the Federal Govt and one private landowner. The island is 10 miles long, it looks like it did in 1492.
It is a great place to go camping.
The island has deer and wild hogs. Both species are overrunning the island, no predators, no cars to kill some beasts. You have to take a 45 minute ferry ride to get to the island.
Two weeks a year Federal Game and Fish operates hunts. Muzzleloading or pistol only. Regular campers are prohibited, makes it safer, plus they tend to be the Granola and Tofu crowd. Only hunters allowed. You have to apply, and hope the computer will draw you.
I figured a place this inaccessable would draw the elite muzzleloader hunters. I had a Mountain rifle that I had built from a kit. I figured there would be lots of guys there wearing buckskins, and shooting homemade flintlocks. It turned out I was wrong.
The night before the first hunt, a guy from the next camp site came over and was admiring my rifle. He said, "You seem to really know your stuff. Would you help me sight in my rifle? I bought this Hawken at Wal Mart 3 days ago and havn't had the chance to shoot it yet."
I suppressed the need to vomit, and begged off of this school session.
I had a bad feeling. Things were about to get worse.
The next morning, to my surprise I didn't see any game. At breakfast, one guy, not the Wal Mart Hawken guy from the night before, was asked what all the shooting was. He said that he had fired 9 times but he must have missed because they all ran off. I looked, he had a muzzleloader, not a pistol. I guess he never heard of tracking a wounded deer. Then too, someone this dumb, he may have missed all 9 times.
I went to ask the Ranger the ferry schedule. He said there would be a ferry in one hour. That gave me time to pack my gear and get the hell off of Cumberland Island. I passed on three more days of hunting, which I had already paid for.
This was just before in lines were invented, but I am sure that today the Cumberland hunters sit around the camp fire the night before the hunt, cutting blister packs off of their new Wal Mart inlines.

Charles/NM · « **Reply #1 on:** August 21, 2003, 07:47:39 AM »

I call that the Daniel Boone complex and I have it bad. What I mean is I have to keep going deeper and deeper into the hunting woods to get away from new age hunters. The invention of the inline muzzle loader certainly didn't help.
What really irritates me is my center fire hunting friends who decide to buy a muzzle loader so they can hunt the earlier ellk and deer seasons. They've all heard me talk about my old side lock percussion rifle or nave seen me shoot it. What do they do when they buy a muzzle loader? They buy a cursed inline! Then I get the "Come shoot muzzle loaders with me." We meet, I put up a shootin iron table and procede to shoot targets, cans or whatever. What are my new inline buddies doing? Swabbing the bore, dropping those silly pellets down the barrel and then try to cram the equally silly plastic sabot down the bore with a little pistol bullet in it. It takes 40 to 50 pounds of force to get that mess down the bore and then the finally get to shoot. After a few shots they have plastic residue permantly embedded in their bores if they didn't swab between each shot with Rusty Duck. Meanwhile I've shot 4 or 5 Maxiballs into nice tight groups. One friend who has a special entry deer muzzle loader hunt coming up in a few weeks is still shooting keyholing pistol bullets. I just don't get it.
One thing is for sure - the newbies don't ever hunt more than a mile from their trucks or nice new Jeeps - so in most areas all you have to do is hike further into the woods and let the newbies run the game to you.
Frustrated in NM

alpini · « **Reply #2 on:** August 21, 2003, 07:51:51 AM »

Simon
That truly is sad. I run into people a lot in the field like that. I knew a guy that couldn't sight-in his 5lb. carbine because the 400 grain solids in front of 100gn load was too much recoil. He called it good enough and hunted with it anyway. There is probably a lot of folks like that.

Bullseye · « **Reply #3 on:** August 21, 2003, 02:03:20 PM »

Well I agree on the folks that buy a gun the day before season. However it happens with muzzleloaders, rifles, shotguns and bows. It is amazing to go to the range the day before season no matter what weapon is coming into season. It is not the weapons as much as the people.

I do not promote an in-line or a sidelock. Use what you like, but keep an open mind. It is not the type of weapon but the mentality of the hunter.

From the opinions of most sidelock shooters, I am surprised there is any on this board since a computer is also new technology since the 1800's.

Winter Hawk · « **Reply #4 on:** August 21, 2003, 03:41:15 PM »

Bulsey! Do I detect flames?

Seriously, the inline is not really new. The modern incarnation is. I agree that you have a LOT of "hunters" who fit the previous description and it doens't matter what they carry, whether cartridge rifle, arhcery tackle or muzzleloader. Slobs is slobs. But a lot of them don't know they are slobs, and we must educate them. There are enough anti-hunters out there, and slob hunters give them more ammo to use against the rest of us.

Take care,
-Kees-

mamaflinter · « **Reply #5 on:** August 21, 2003, 04:28:52 PM »

Quote from: Bullseye

It is not the weapons as much as the people.

I do not promote an in-line or a sidelock. Use what you like, but keep an open mind. It is not the type of weapon but the mentality of the hunter.

From the opinions of most sidelock shooters, I am surprised there is any on this board since a computer is also new technology since the 1800's.

Bullseye I couldn't agree with your statement more about the fact is the people not the weapon that are hurting our sport.

But can I ask you something? Did you mean it when you said the last 2 lines of your post? Now I shoot sidelocks exclusively, but I have no problem with others who shoot inlines and in fact if someone asks me about them, I give them my honest appraisal of them....But to say you're surprised there are any sidelock shooters here since technology advanced since the 1800s is a bit much don't you think? We have a right to visit a forum just as much as anyone else.

Bullseye · « **Reply #6 on:** August 21, 2003, 05:40:12 PM »

No mamaflinter, I did not mean that to be a all inclusive statement like it sounded. I have seen your post before here and you seem very open minded.

I did not really mean to start a flame, but probably did. It just seems that when a question is asked in this forum about the newer stuff (I have asked a few myself) that half of the relies are about how these problems never existed before pellets, pyrodex, etc. and how wonderful life would be if everyone shot sidelocks. I usually just ignore it all but I guess I made an exception this evening. We all shoot what we enjoy, ask questions when we need help and should get answers from others with previous experience.

johnt · « **Reply #7 on:** August 21, 2003, 06:10:11 PM »

Well said Bullseye, I enjoy traditional shooting myself. And when Questions come up specific to in-lines I don't responde. I don't know the answer. Then some clown comes on and say's for 19.95 you can have the best there is!
Some folk's hang the rack on the front of the truck an drive around town. Others just hang'm on the back of the shed and have a nother good meal.
i guess it's all just bout' folk's.
Takes all kind's ta make the world go round. Just take a kid with ya,
if ya take a kid huntin' today,you won't havta hunt for'm tomorrow,,,,

Charles/NM · « **Reply #8 on:** August 21, 2003, 06:28:05 PM »

I reread my post and what I wrote was a little more demeaning than I meant it to be. Who am I kidding? No it wasn't.
On a more serious mote, I've shot inlines and actually enjoyed it. The point I was intending to make was that inline rifles and all the extra stuff and bothersome loading doesn't make sense to ME. Apparently it does to lots of others.
As for using this new fangled computer - I'm still amazed that we have hot showers inside the house. My wife just shakes her head and gives me "the look" like I'm nuts or something.
Charles/NM

Tracker · « **Reply #9 on:** August 22, 2003, 08:01:53 AM »

The point is that we all like to do different things, different ways, and for different reasons. If it isn't illegal we should all support our hunting/shooting brothers and stop being so criticle of others. I hunt deer with a bow cause I can and I shoot a flintlock sometime cause I like to And wehn i really want to collect a deer I take every advantage I can ect. ect. It all boils down to living in a great country and having the opportunities to do mostly what we want. And I would remember that newbies which may be our children are the future.

1GLOCK · « **Reply #10 on:** August 22, 2003, 08:15:01 AM »

The guys that pick up their brand new gun the night before season or dont bother to sight in or check the zero on their old gun dont belong in the woods anyway, who cares what they are using. It could be a 100 year old hand built Hawken or a brand new Knight Disc, dosent matter if youre a moron, youre a moron. No matter what youre carrying!! Also, that newbe that apears to be a moron may not be so stupid, just new. Next time try taking the time to educate instead of putting down, if they refuse to listen thats their problem. I just think the hunters and shooters can use all the new help they can get, yeah, some are hopeless cases but hey, you can still try. Some of the city people that are "hunters" are not like those of us brought up hunting and fishing and shooting, thyre learning as they go, I just really think they could use a little help from us rednecks. How are you supposed to know something thats never been taught to you? You can read about it all you want but until youve done it you know nothing. Let me ask you this, if it was a 12 year old kid would you have begged off that sight in session?? Whats the difference? New is new.
All of that probably means nothing and is easier said than done but hey, its the truth as I see it.
1GLOCK

alpini · « **Reply #11 on:** August 22, 2003, 09:59:52 AM »

Hey you're right about it's the shooter and not the weapon.
Perhaps, I carried a resentment for the stainless steel, fluted,ultralight, halographic sighted wonder rifles that had no traditional values at all.
I'll admit that I felt somewhat hurt that a friend who had never hunted primitive before picks up a fancy new inline and promptly declares traditional muzzleloaders obsolete, inhumane and ineffecient.
You are correct, it's about education, not put downs. I applogize if I offended. The problem is mine and for that I'm sorry.
Clay

Tracker · « **Reply #12 on:** August 22, 2003, 10:24:23 AM »

Now I would argue with anyone that called my hawken with a flint obsolete and ineffective. There a lot of deer out there that would argue along with us. I guess my point is that there are slobs out there but it isn't due to the weapons they use. I do know that some guys do get upset when guys use inlines to take advantage of the special season but oh well what can you do (I admit when it rains I will use the inline also). I started ML hunting when PA opened up after CHRISTmas for flint only. Times have changed. I can remember when you got one deer a year period no matter what gun/bow you used. Now you can shoot all the deer you are willing to buy tags for.

KING · « **Reply #13 on:** August 22, 2003, 05:41:46 PM »

Unfortunatley,gentleman,..............today we are more interested in quantity,than quality. I think it is important as to what type of message we send to those that look at us as hunters. I also think that the choice of weapon denotes this along with the level of skill with that weapon. Stay safe.........King

mamaflinter · « **Reply #14 on:** August 23, 2003, 02:45:27 AM »

Gentlemen I think you will all agree with me when I say that in a corporation's executive's mind, all they want to know is "Does product "X" make a profit?" Are we selling them? Are we selling enough of them to warrant continual offering of this product?" It's all about dollars and cents. Let's face it they are in this business to make money. If it's not making money they don't keep the given models of firearms around.

But I can also say without a shadow of a doubt that there is enough diversity and variety out there that anyone coming into muzzleloading will be able to find something they feel comfortable shooting.

Charlie Detroit · « **Reply #15 on:** August 23, 2003, 05:31:50 AM »

You folks are right about it bein' the people, not the guns...seems like, whenever anything is started up, a large percentage of yoyos jump in with both feet, thinking that they don't have to know anything to do it. When you're talking about firearms, nothing could be further from the truth! The real problem comes up when one of these "ignorant-and-proud-of-it" jerks hurts himself or somebody else. THEN he turns around and sues the people who DO know something, no matter how many warnings they might have printed on the box, because they should have foreseen that this dumb slob would be just too damn stupid to think his actions through. I think most gun-related occurences of this sort probably qualify for "Stella" awards.
As an example of this, although it has nothing to do with Black Powder, at my club's annual sight-in clinic last Fall, I got a young kid on the 110-yd. Stationary Silhouette line. He was accompanied by his whole family and a scoped Winchester '94. This kid kept hitting the deer silhouette in the butt, with a heartshot aiming point. The whole family is yelling at him to hold "two feet in front of the chest", and he's trying to hold off to hit the heart, with not much success. I finally told the family to shut up, and got the story out of the kid...the family had bought the '94 as a "family hunting rifle", and every damn-fool one of them had been hitting the deer in the butt, and trying to hold off. I took the cap off the scope dial, used a penny (yeah, I had a screwdriver, but I was trying to rub it in...maybe it might make 'em think) cranked the windage over the right number of clicks, and handed the kid the rifle. Bingo! They were amazed! Never thought of that! I only hope that this little demonstration made some of them start to try to learn something about what they were trying to do.

Underclocked · « **Reply #16 on:** August 23, 2003, 11:22:15 AM »

My gosh, Charlie, I'm glad you posted that story. Now I can stop aiming two feet to the right! :wink:

Charlie Detroit · « **Reply #17 on:** August 23, 2003, 12:16:35 PM »

The deer silhouette was headed left...no wonder you kept hitting the butt!

daddywpb · « **Reply #18 on:** August 25, 2003, 12:17:20 PM »

Unfortunately, it's not just a muzzleloader problem. Archery season opened this past Saturday. A week ago we were at Bass Pro Shop picking up a couple things, and there was a line at the archery counter waiting for their brand new bows to be set up to hunt with. All of the people I spoke with there were first time archery shooters, and I'm sure they were in the woods with the new bows last Saturday. Makes me sick.

By the way, I have a T/C hawken that I've hunted with for almost 15 years. Last season, I bought a T/C Omega, and I've got to admit I like it better. It's easier to load, easier to shoot, and easier to clean.

simonkenton · « **Reply #19 on:** August 25, 2003, 01:18:33 PM »

1Glock--The reason I avoided the sight in session was because I did not want to participate in helping this guy screw up in the woods. This guy had gone to go all the trouble to apply for the drawing months ago, drive for hours to get to St. Mary's, pay for the ferry, and haul all his camping gear and hunting stuff to the island. He had left off, however, the most important thing. You have got to be a good shot with your weapon. He was not going to get proficient with that rifle on the first day of the Cumberland hunt and I wanted no part of his screw up, whether he wound up missing, or gut shooting a poor deer.
I was fairly well known in my little town for being a muzzleloading hunter, there was no muzzleloading season then in Ga. and there were few muzzleloading hunters. Had someone called me up and said, I bought a new Hawken at Wal Mart three days ago and I would like some help sighting it in, I would have gone to the range with him the next day and spent hours to assist him. And I would have told him, See you here in two weeks and we will shoot some more.
This Cumberland Island guy had heard all the stories, like I had, of how easy it was to shoot a lot of game on Cumberland. He wanted to take advantage of some supposedly easy hunting, but he didn't have his ducks in a row. He can be an irresponsible screw up on his own time.

KING · « **Reply #20 on:** August 25, 2003, 04:46:51 PM »

:grin: simonkenton. If your luck runs the way mine probably would have ,it would go like this. You show him how to load and shoot it. Nevermind that you explain for the ten thousandths time about knowing where it shoots. He will figure that at 25 yards it will not be very far off and he can kill a deer. What he ends up doing in actuality is to wound one,or several,and guess whos fault it is that they did not go down.............any takers on this. stay safe.....King........agree with you 100 percent on youyr actions. Sorry about the hunt getting screwed up,been there myself a few times :evil: :evil:

mamaflinter · « **Reply #21 on:** August 26, 2003, 12:23:51 AM »

Ya know what really upset me while it was running?

??

It was the advertisement from T/C about the Encore I think it was about the out of the box accuracy. I don't know how many people on the various boards were all bragging about taking this gun out without shooting and harvesting deer with it.

KING · « **Reply #22 on:** August 26, 2003, 01:08:20 PM »

mamaflinter......What you will not here is how many were NOT recovered. I think it is our society that is pushng the " Quick" way of doing things. :roll: :roll: Stay safe........King

Graybeard · « **Reply #23 on:** August 31, 2003, 12:02:03 PM »

I don't stop by here all that often cuz really I'm not that much into muzzle loaders. Yeah I have a couple and have been known to hunt with them not regularly.

The one thing you are not gonna find here is snobbery of either traditions or inlines. This site is for both and that will be enforced. I know some sites will ban you for even discussing inlines. Not here. Some sites look down on you for using flint or side hammer percussion and not inlines. Not here. This one is for all you front stuffers.

But question for those of you who in some way feel a side hammer percussion (nope not the flinters) are somehow better or less trouble than an inline. How? Why? I have both. I havae the TC Silver Hawk of many years ago. It is SS which is why I bought it and plastic (definitely NOT why I bought it). Hope to some day put a laminated wood stock on it. I load it with Pyrodex (no one I'm aware of in two counties near me sells the real stuff) and either Buffalo Bullets or Hornady GP bullets. I've never stuffed a sabot or pellets in it. So what's the real difference in it and a side hammer loaded the same?

I also have a Traditions Crockett .32 which I've still not gotten around to shooting in about a year or so of ownership. I did get it with good intentions of doing some squirrel hunting with it and still hope to.

GB

Charles/NM · « **Reply #24 on:** August 31, 2003, 05:02:47 PM »

The REAL difference? None. There may be differences in what in what bullet weight an individual rifle shoots best due to different barrel twist rates. but no real difference because of the type of ignition system.
Charles/NM

1GLOCK · « **Reply #25 on:** September 02, 2003, 08:04:46 AM »

Yeah, I see you guy's point. Given the circumstances I probably would have attempted to help anyway but thats just me. You do open yourself up to problems when you help morons.