Author Topic: old mortars  (Read 1116 times)

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Offline RocklockI

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old mortars
« on: March 07, 2009, 07:03:52 PM »
I have a question , does anyone know what the nomenclature is/was for those old thin walled bronze ones .

cannonmn had a video of one that rang like a bell .

Small dia. in the back end with big bore for the walls . 
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2009, 08:03:27 PM »
Howitzers have relatively thin walls and are intermediate in length between mortars and cannon.
GG
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2009, 03:18:04 AM »
Do a search on COEHORN.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Coehorn_mortars
"Coehorns were a type of small mortars invented by Menno van Coehoorn in 1674."

http://www.fortified-places.com/coehoorn.html

The design was to make something light-weight and yet able to chuck a BIG bullet.

Powder chamber allowed maximum strength when/where it counted, thin walls of the tube allowed much lower total weight.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline RocklockI

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2009, 04:02:45 AM »
Thanks but I'm looking for something bigger than Cohorn types .

I'll know it when I see it . ;D   
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline dan610324

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2009, 04:08:29 AM »
could some of this maybe be interesting ??
Dan Pettersson
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interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline dan610324

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2009, 04:11:34 AM »
more

Dan Pettersson
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better safe than sorry

Offline dan610324

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2009, 04:14:36 AM »
and the last


Dan Pettersson
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better safe than sorry

Offline dan610324

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2009, 04:20:16 AM »
they are all beautiful , but my personal favorite would be numer 8 from the top of this drawings
Dan Pettersson
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interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline RocklockI

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2009, 04:20:54 AM »
OK ! El Caz has one posted here  http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,63873.270.html

It IS looking like a cohorn on a base . It is the shape of the barrel that is the kind of thing i'm looking for .

Thanks for those Drawings Dan ! Those are some very sweet looking tubes . Over here I would call some of them a King Howie type .

Gary
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline RocklockI

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2009, 04:27:36 AM »
Like this one

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=167165.0;attach=18376;image

Cyphers , dolfins , and barrel shape . I realize its the "style and flair " I'm looking for ,more than a certain howie /mortar .

Thanks guys !!!
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline dan610324

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2009, 04:54:35 AM »
yes its beautiful , its remaining a little of this one

sorry if the picture is very small , but thats the photo used when I bought it , I cant resize my photos to fit in here any longer .
Dan Pettersson
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better safe than sorry

Offline RocklockI

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2009, 05:09:03 AM »
BINGO Dan ! That is probably the prettiest mortar I ever saw .

I need one  8), in GB size .....you wouldn't have a barrel full of them just lying around do you  ::)?????

Yikes I might have found my next project . I wonder how much a 4" dia. x 5-6" long piece of bronze .

gary
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline dan610324

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2009, 05:15:04 AM »
give me your email address and I will send you some full size pictures of it as I cant resize them to post them here , and if you are interested in this model you have more use of the full size photos if you are going to build something similar .  maybe you can resize them and put them up here if anyone more want to look at better pictures .

or if anyone want them in full size please just tell me that in an email and you will have them all

                                          dan610324@hotmail.com
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline intoodeep

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2009, 05:19:53 AM »
RocklockI ,

Is this the video you mentioned?

[yt=425,350]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nVj-3Rzsu8M&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nVj-3Rzsu8M&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/yt]
If you make it idiot proof, then, someone will make a better idiot.


Offline RocklockI

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2009, 05:22:14 AM »
Yes thats the one !
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline RocklockI

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2009, 05:39:18 AM »
Dan Email is on the way .
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2009, 05:57:50 AM »
Dan,    I don't think I have ever seen a nicer small mortar.  That's a real beauty!!   25mm bore?

Tracy

Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline dan610324

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2009, 06:35:46 AM »
35 mm , but unforunately its just a show piece .
to thin all the way and with a hole in the bottom to make sure no fool try to shoot with it .
and no idea what alloy used either . but it sure is beautiful .
bought it on ebay england approximately 6 months ago .
total length of barrel 4 1/2"
length of base almost 8"
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline dan610324

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2009, 07:49:39 AM »
rocklock

why thinking in terms of turning ??

the bronze bars are expensive . and you still cant have the dolphines .

why not go all the way , try casting ??
ok its a lot to learn but its fun
Ive probably spent a year or more totaly in theoretical learning and research before I started .
but today it could be done in a few weeks or maybe months when all info is availeable on the internet .
its a lot of trial and errors , but bronze can be melted again and cast again , so the waste isnt that big .
you can use waste frying oil from the local mcdonalds as fuel if you want . down here you can see 2 different models of burners , or you can use an old boiler burner as I do . there is probably almost as many burner styles as there are home foundries .
the big problem is to learn to make it exactly the same from time to time so you will have perfect quality all the castings .
I was thinking of making an book on how to produce your own cannon from a to z .
but I got so many plans and so little time   ;D


Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline RocklockI

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2009, 09:54:30 AM »
Dan I would love to learn how to cast a barrel  :o !!!!

"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline dan610324

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2009, 10:32:36 AM »
it aint difficult , you just need to be very careful and remember all parts of it that you can repeat it exactly the same next time .
or you can make it a lot easier with some modern equipment as a pyrometer to know when you got the right temperature .
but if you weight the copper and thin and have the right temperature then it aint any more problems with the casting .

the problem is the mold making .
its many steps in that process .
please remember that when Im talking casting I always talk casting by the lost wax method .
thats approximately the same method as was used 4- 500 years ago .
but ok today you use some modern materials instead of what was used then .

start googling at backyard foundry and lost wax casting , then you have a week or so to read that  ;D ;D
maybe it sounds difficult but it aint , it just take a hell of a lot of time to do it to get an perfect result , but its very fun and most of the work you can do on your living room table .
ok thats if you live alone of course   ::) ::)  I do   ::)

but its a lot of shortcuts you could take if you only will produce one single item .

I would guess that you could produce one martar like this one but in golf ball size for 50 us dollars

but it will involve you in a hell of a lot of work also .

you can also invest 20 - 30 000 us dollars in equipment and have an very low quality as a result if you dont know what you do .
so my advise to you is to start googling and learn as much as possible in this topics . but forget anything called sand casting if you want an good result .
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline RocklockI

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2009, 10:57:43 AM »
I'll give those sites a look .
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline dan610324

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2009, 11:23:45 AM »
this ring is actually the absolut first lost wax casting I did
weight a little less then 1 ounce , 31,7 gram . 18K except for the shield that is 22K
I made it from my mothers wedding and engagement rings and some other scrap gold she had when she died .
one broken bracelet and one earring
I think its  better for me to remember her with this ring then to sell the gold as scrap metal .
this way she always be close to me .

so as you can see there is very easy to get extremely small details visible with perfect quality when the lost wax method is used .

she have been dead now for 20 years and its more then 15 years since I made this ring , but still hadnt decide about the engraving  ;D  maybe it will be a problem for my son to decide about that   ;D
Dan Pettersson
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interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2009, 01:00:14 PM »
Thanks but I'm looking for something bigger than Cohorn types .
...

some of his coehorns were in the 8" to 10" bore range, if I remember right.  The CW coehorns were so named because of the thin walls and powder chamber design.  The originals were very similar to many of the last ones posted - beautiful bronze castings.
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Offline dan610324

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2009, 01:18:33 PM »
what you could do the comming days while you are study all you can find about back yard casting , home foundry and lost wax casting is to put out the word to friends and neighbours that you buy scrap copper and tin .

BUT IF YOU ARE GOING TO USE SCRAP METAL YOU MUST BE VERY VERY CAREFUL .
only use what you know are pure copper or tin . the best would of course be to buy virgin metals , but thats no option for you if you are going to build this at an 50 dollar budget as I told you should be possible . you would probably need approximately 5 kilo or 11 pounds of bronze
a good cannon bronze should contain 90% copper and 10% tin .
this piece should be cast solid as most impurities and gas bubbles are accumulated in the middle of the casting as it solidify last.
to be sure you got pure copper you SHOULD NOT use plumbing parts , this is most probably an alloy and not pure copper . best source to be sure that its pure copper is to only use copper that had been used in anything made to conduct electrical power .


never cast a cannon with an alloy you dont know to 101% the exact content of the alloy .
there are some metals that you only need in extremely small amounts to makes the bronze so fragile that it will probably blow up at the first shot .

when it comes to the tin you must be sure that its  NOT  a lead/tin alloy , must be pure tin .

during the 1920 to 1940 period it was very popular to make candelabres and other small items in tin , I dont know about the us , but here in sweden they are stamped pure tin in the bottom , then you know what you get . I buy all broken pieces from antique shops and fleemarkets that I find , offering the owner 1/3 of the metal price , thats more than he should get from an scrap metal dealer .

so while you are doing your homework on the internet you could start collecting metal  ;D
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline GGaskill

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2009, 08:05:14 PM »
Here is a thread that talks about bronze casting of a half scale mountain howitzer.
GG
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Offline dan610324

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2009, 02:34:32 AM »
thats lots of very good info there for those who are interested in casting their own cannon .

BUT PLEASE NEVER USE SILICONE BRONZE FOR CANNONS

its very good for many different things and is most often used in statues and similar artistic castings just because of the very good liquid caracteristics during the casting , but its to brittle for cannons .

90/10 copper/tin is the old alloy used since they start to know what they did, but the variations is probably as many as there are cannons . many of the variation was because they didnt know how to get pure metal . and they ofcourse recycled a lot of metal

today the gunmetal as you amercans call it is a very good alloy , 88/8/4  copper/tin/zink .
it will be slightly more yellow in color then real tin bronze , but it also have much better caracteristics when it comes to the casting process .

the variations in the bronze alloy have been hughe during time and also very different from manufacturer to manufacturer . I got an doctorial dissertation from the archaeological research laboratory at the stockholm university by helena forshell that contain chemical analysis made with atomic absorbtion spectrophotometry .

among many other interesting things it contain the test result from approximately 300 cannons from different times and origin .

you had a very good picture there showing how the impurites are gathered in the center and most of them are at the top of the casting , thats why all cannons should be cast standing muzzle up .
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2009, 05:44:37 AM »
I have a question , does anyone know what the nomenclature is/was for those old thin walled bronze ones .

cannonmn had a video of one that rang like a bell .

Small dia. in the back end with big bore for the walls . 

As to what name or word is used to describe the style or design of the mortars you're interested in, I've never seen any special designation or name used to identify them other than siege mortars. When the European military man Baron Coehoorn first developed a smaller more easily transported mortar in the latter 1600's, that was light enough for two to four men to maneuver around a battlefield, it's strategic advantages were soon understood, and the armies of Europe and Britain were quick to adopt the idea. These smaller mortars came to be called Coehorns after the designer, and the larger mortars, 8,10, 13-inch, and bigger continued to be called siege mortars. 
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: old mortars
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2009, 06:54:29 AM »
GOOD summary!   ;)

Language and usage of words is game.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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