Need real world advice: .358 win instead of .444 marlin lever?

[mannyrock]

Dear Guys,

   Assume that you don't reload, and you are only going to shoot large deer or medium size black bear, in East Coast woods/fields, out to a max of 125 yards, is there any practical reason to get a lever action in .358 Winchester, instead of a Marlin .444 lever action? 

   Thanks for all replies.

Mannyrock

[WyoStillhunter]

My answer is, "No."

I own, hunt with, and have taken at least two elk, two deer, and one antelope each with Marlin 444S and a Rem. 700 Classic in .35 Whelen in the last five years.  That's pretty close to the caliber comparison you bring up.

The Whelen is the superior rifle based on trajectory and power at the target beyond 200 yards on elk, and it has the edge for shots that present difficult angles.  But on deer and black bear the .444 gives nothing away out to 150 yards and maybe further.

The .444 ammo from Hornady is excellent in both the 265 gr. FN Interlock Light Magnum and the 265 gr. LeverEvolution versions.  Whichever one you choose will do the job.  I have taken elk and deer and antelope with the 265 gr. Hornady FN bullet.  My MicroGroove rifle shoots the FN bullet into tighter groups than the LE bullet.  My shots are usually well under 100 yards.  So I have stuck with the FN bullet.  Others have great success with LE ammo.

444 Marlin rifles are more available and I suspect cheaper than a lever action in .358.  Put a low power fixed or variable scope on a .444 Marlin and you are good to go with Hornady factory ammo.

2006 Mule Deer taken with .444 Marlin


2007 Elk taken with .444 Marlin

[cwlongshot]

First off, I have to say that I really LOVE the 358 Winchester and feel its a do it all caliber for my kind of hunting. I had a BLR many moons ago and shot the crap out of it as well as a trunk load of whitetails. I can honestly say I have never killed a deer faster than I have with this caliber. Three that I remember pulling there legs up under the body at impact and them falling to the ground in slow motion. Then laying there head down like a dog would lying on there brisket. But I have to admit, it is near obsolescence and being so the ammo is getting hard to find and ever more costly.
 SO, based on your criteria, I'll have to suggest the 444Marlin. Its a good one and getting a bit of a "kick in the pants" of late with some new offerings in ammo and firearms.

CW

[Mikey]

WyoStillhunter andd cwlongshot x 2.  The 444 will do everything you need it to do on any north American game and assuming you do not reload, the 444 is, I belive, the better choice.  Mikey.

[ftlupton]

Timely post for me! Live in Colorado but hunt mostly timber anymore. Why choose the 444 over the 45/70? I do handload and spend lots of time at the range. Have used big bolt guns for years but levers are what I want now. My 336 30-30 has served me well in the timber.

[cwlongshot]

Timely post for me! Live in Colorado but hunt mostly timber anymore. Why choose the 444 over the 45/70? I do handload and spend lots of time at the range. Have used big bolt guns for years but levers are what I want now. My 336 30-30 has served me well in the timber.

 I'll go out on a limb here and say, Most of us would NOT choose the 444 over the 45-70. The 45-70 was not an option in the origional posters question. 

 Not that anything is wrong with the 444, its a wonderful cartridge. But for me lacks the luster of the grand old 45-70.

CW

[BBF]

 Since the original post says " No reloading" and the 45-70 doesn't get exciting unless you do, I will vote for the 444 as well.

I would add one other thought to this. If you can find one or could be happy with, Rem used to chamber the 35 Whelen in their pumps.

[mannyrock]

Dear Guys,

  Thanks for the advice.  You have confirmed what my gut was tellling me.  Given the parameters I outlined, there is no reason to be thinking of a .358 Winchester over a .444 Marlin.

  And, I may be wrong but, if someone had a Marlin lever action in .35 Remington, couldn't they get pretty close to the performance of a .358 Winchester by just using some of those new high powered rounds offered by Corbon, Garrett, Buffalo Bore, etc. in .35 Remington?

Thanks,

P.S.- Prior post is correct vis the .45-70.  If you hate to reload, then the .444 Marlin beats the .45-70 hands down, and with less recoil.  The .444 Marlin is also very easy to find in factory ammo.

Mannyrock

[Rangr44]

[don't reload/only going to shoot East Coast deer/black bear to a max of 125 yds/lever action .358 Winchester, or a .444 Marlin]

That exactly describes me, what with, what animals, & where I've hunted for the last 40-odd years.

Two of the rifles I've tried/used, successfully, WERE a .358 BLR and a Marlin .444 - and IMHO they're BOTH too much gun unless handloaded.

The .358's pencilled through deer, while the .444's expanded too violently, in my experiences.

I've actually decked more deer & bear, quicker & neater, with 180gr factory .30-06 SP's & 240gr .44 Mag JSP's.

I use the '06 while "on stand", and the .44 Mag while moving (stalking, scouting, etc).

.

[BBF]

I am thinking you might have used the 240 gr load in the 444.  That violent expansion was a normal occurance for the 444 at close range with that pistol bullet.
I and a good friend have used the 265 gr, Hdy FN. which expands to almost an inch in big animals( moose) but is not explosive. It left a big wound channel inside the animal but didn't cause any bloodshot meat.

[Graybeard]

And, I may be wrong but, if someone had a Marlin lever action in .35 Remington, couldn't they get pretty close to the performance of a .358 Winchester by just using some of those new high powered rounds offered by Corbon, Garrett, Buffalo Bore, etc. in .35 Remington?

Close but no cigar. Now you could send it to SSK Industries a GBO Sponsor and have them turn it into a .356 Winchester and have one of the most handy hunting rifles out there.

Inside 150-175 yards there really isn't much to recommend either the .358 or .444 over the other. If you are gonna stretch that range much further then the .358 comes into its own as a superior round.

The single complaint I have against the .444 is the limited selection of bullets designed to perform properly at that velocity range. Still there are enough and as long as there are enough that's good and no more is needed. Having a huge number of bullet choices is good but if there is only one and it's a good one that's really adequate.

[cwlongshot]

Bill,
 Just something to ponder...
  The only two loads I remember for the 358 where the 200 and 250 Silvertips from Winchester. The 250 was discontinued very early on (IMHO it was the better round) leaving only the 200gr load that's available today.
 The 444 has quite a few more with the recent addition of the lever evolution round and about a dozen others from the likes of Federal, Remington, Corbon and Buffalo bore.

 Don't get me wrong, in my opinion, the 358 is hands down, a better, more versatile caliber. But based on the author's criteria, (and my affinity for larger diameter calibers) I suggested the 444 marlin. Partly do to the larger selection of bullets factory loaded.

CW

[Graybeard]

He did say no reloading didn't he? That do limit the options with the .358 for sure.

[cwlongshot]

He did say no reloading didn't he? That do limit the options with the .358 for sure.

Yup, no reloading....

CW

[Bigeasy]

I am a big 35 caliber fan, so my view may be slanted, and there is really no wrong choice here, but I like the thought that if I see a nice buck 300 yards up a power line, or across a corn field, its nice to know the flatter trajectory of my .358 BLR makes the shot easier.

Larry

[dpe.ahoy]

I would have to vote for the 444.  I have 2 and like the heck out of them.  My 444P is a sweetheart to carry and "kick" to shoot.   Given your post I think that the 444 is your top choice.  I do like my 35 Rem and with the new LE ammo for Hornady it will do what you want also.  Which ever one you get I'm sure you will enjoy it.  DP

[BBF]

The 35 Rem is noticeable below the energy level of the other two. That is not to criticize the cartridge which I found very useful when I had a rifle for them. It just isn't comparable to the other choices.

[dpe.ahoy]

But given what he said as his use, the 35 Rem would do just fine.  DP

[Mt_Sourdough]

I hunted with a 444 for the first time this year.  I couldnt be more impressed by this rifle/cartridge.  I took three shots on game and got three kills.  None of the three deer took a single step after the shot.  They just collapsed instantly.  I recall one kicking her rear legs a couple of times, but beyond that, couldnt have died quicker if hit by a bolt of lightning.  With open irons, my shots at the range get me 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards.  The recoil is rather mild for such a big caliber.  It doesnt kick much more than a 270 in my opinion.  This rifle just puts a smile on my face.  Oh, and I shoot the LE and dont feel any desire to try anything else.

[Redhawk1]

Given the to choices I would go with the 444 Marlin. Buy some Buffalo Bore ammo, very good rounds for the non-reloader. Better than the Remington factory bullets in my opinion.

But myself, I would settle for the 45-70, and if I did not reload, again Buffalo Bore ammo beats the 444 Marlin and .358 Win.

But you are the one that has to like the gun you want. Better yet do like I do, own more than one. I have 4 Lever actions guns, I had 12 of them at one time. I am down to a 45-70, 444 Marlin, 44 Mag and a 22 L/R.

I sold my two 30-30's my 35 Remington and 3 other 444 Marlins and 2 other 45-70's.

My last advice is start reloading. You can reload for less money per box, you won't save any money, because you will shoot more. 

[Redtail1949]

None whatsoever!

[gl411]

I have had both and now only the .358 -- but if you do not reload and the recoil does not bother you go with the .444--of course some of the custom loaders on the net will load what ever you want in the .358 also if you want to go that way like Conleys-- Personally I settled on the .358 because of range, brass- can use 308, 30-06, and bullets with lessor recoil and powder usage  my .1 deflation

[Sweetwater]

I like GB's suggestion concerning the 356W. All of these rifles are fairly expensive now, with maybe a 358W Model 88 Winchester or a 358W Savage 99 leading the pack, followed by the 358W in a BLR being very close to the 356W BB94. If cost is a concern, probably the 444 in the Marlin is the bargain. So, what do you do; pick the cartridge and get the rifle that shoots it? Or vice-versa? Most of my rifle/handgun decisions have been tempered by dollar signs and what I want in the rifle. Paper ballistics don't count. Meat in the freezer and/or mounts on the wall; that's what counts. How you feel about the cartridge/rifle combination counts. If you "think" it's the right one, you probably will have more confidence in it than one that you think isn't right - until it proves you wrong. And then you stumble onto something at the local shop that you weren't even thinking about and it grabs your heart and empties your wallet! LOL! It's a great game, and we do take it very seriously, but it still comes down to a choice and you are the one that needs to be satisfied. Let us know what you did!!

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Hunter6657]

I think you ought to try the new 338 Marlin Express.     

I am!!

444 slams them down out to 200 yards.
356 slams them down and not much bloodshot meat with the factory 200gr.

[Ahshucks]

It was mentioned earlier, but all you have to do is search for the .358 ammo:

Conley Precision Cartridge
Precision Rifle Ammunition 
 http://www.cpcartridge.com/358win-P.htm
   
358 Winchester
 

    Bullet Type & Weight
 Velocity FPS Price / 20 
 180 Gr. Barnes XFB 2802 Click Here   
 200 Gr. Hornady Interlock  SP 2700 Click Here   
 200 Gr. Barnes XFB 2680 Click Here   
 225 Gr. Nosler Partition 2525 Click Here   
 225 Gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip  "WARNING" 2550 Click Here   
 225 Gr. Swift A-Frame 2520 Click Here   
 225 Gr. Barnes TSX 2550 Click Here   
 250 Gr. Hornady Interlock  SP 2420 Click Here   
 250 Gr. Speer Grand Slam 2420 Click Here   
 250 Gr. Swift A-Frame 2415 Click Here   
 250 Gr. Nosler Partition 2415 Click Here 

http://www.starsandstripesammo.com/index2.html


http://www.pcammunition.com/results.php?cartridge=.358+Winchester&Type=Rifle

Product Number Bullet Weight Description Velocity (fps) B.C. Use Box(s) of Price 
3780 200 Barns Triple Shock - Flat Base 2500 0.28 Deer, Elk, Large Game 100 $226.43

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 3781 225 Barns Triple Shock - Flat Base 2450 0.36 Elk. Large Game 100 $226.43

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 3782 225 Nosler Partition 2450 0.43 Elk. Large Game 100 $233.09

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 3783 250 Nosler Partition 2275 0.45 Elk. Large Game 100 $233.09

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 3784 225 Woodleigh Protected Point Soft Nose 2450 0.26 Elk. Large Game 100 $233.09

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 3785 225 Woodleigh Full Metal Jacket 2450 0.26 Elk. Large Game 100 $277.49

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 3786 250 Woodleigh Protected Point Soft Nose 2275 0.30 Elk. Large Game 100 $233.09

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 3787 250  Sierra Spitzer Boat Tail GameKing 2275 0.39 Elk. Large Game 100 $166.49

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[pastorp]

mannyrock, A 35rem. will do everything you said you want to do with factory loads and less recoil. Regards

[BBF]

I agree with reply #25.

[jcn59]

You can get the 358 in a magazine fed rifle.  Try that with a .444.