How much penetration is needed??

[Frog123]

Just curious. How much penetration is needed when using soaked newspapers for a bullet test medium. I'm working on some handgun loads for whitetails and I'm curious how many inches should be considered the minimum??


Frog

[Duffy]

That could be a tough one to answer.  If you figure the distance through the meat of a deer on a side shot the bullet would only have to penetrate about 6". Now that's just saying that it goes in one side through the lungs and out the other side. My 708 with a 140 grain BT will penetrate 23" @ 100 yards.  The 44 with a 320 LBT LFN will go the same and will easily go through a deer. I would wager that 12 to 15" as a minimum at 100 yards.

Will be interesting to see some other answers.

[John Y Cannuck]

Lymans original cast bullet handbook shows 30-06 factory fodder at  (going by memory) about 17"penetration in wet newsprint. They equalled that with 30-30 cast bullet loads.

Obviously, there is more to it, than penetration. I suspect the 30-30 hole was much smaller in comparison to the '06 cavity.

I think they got 12 to 13" out of a factory 30-30, and that might be a good base for your tests.

[WD45]

How much penetration is needed ? Well, enough to kill the deer. Duffy is right about this being kind of a tough one. There is more to bullet penetration than just how far it will go. You also have to look at the damage it did going through until it stopped. It must be constructed well enough to make it through bone and still get to the vitals but a bullet that is so hard it will not expand or do any more damage than pencil through the deer will allow it to make it south of the border before it dies.
This is something that takes time and research and it also depends on what caliber and at what velocities you will be driving said bullet.
Check out sixguns and sixgunner.com. John Taffin, Paco Kelly and those boys have done more of this type of testing than most of us could even come close to with just about every caliber there is.
Dont forget to shoot at more than one distance if you do this test yourself.
A bullet that performs well at 100 yards or more may come apart or do poorly at 30 to 50 yards due to changes in velocity.
Also dont forget .... if ya dont put it in the right spot , penetration dont mean diddily :-)

[Frog123]

Thanks to all who responded. I'm trying some different bullet weights and powder charges out of my 7mm TCU for the upcomming deer season. I was cleaning out the deep freezer and found a deer ham and a couple of shoulders that weren't wrapped well and looked pretty freezer burnt. I think I'm gonna thaw them out and stack them together and try them as  test medium. I'll post results later.. Thanks again..


Frog

[eroyd]

Sounds like a good plan... might be a little gory. May I suggest you try one with a shoulder blade strapped to the front to simulate that sort of hit.

There must be someone who record's info on terminal bullet performance. There are endless senario's to cover.

[Duffy]

I am attempting to finish up some tests with different medium with cast and jacketed bullets but work and weather keep getting in the way.  I am using newsprint and similating bone with heavy pvc pipe. I'll fill in the blanks when I get done, hopefully before hunting season.

Ryan

[WD45]

Frog, you got the right idea. by testing yourself you will know and see what your load combo will do and how effective it is on different media at differend ranges. It takes the wonder out of " I wonder what that ... " and replaces it with I know.
By the way, I wouldn't test that thawed out deer where one of them tree hugger types might see you. I can see the headlines now.....
" Man caught savagely abusing animal years after brutally killing it " details at eleven........ :shock:

If you know someone that keeps a lot of cattle you will always find bones laying around in the pasture. They make great targets and you can see what your load will do on real bone.... hope no tree huggers are reading this

[Hcliff]

I have did this test before.  It is fun.  If you are using a cast 44 or 45 bullet you will need over 30" of paper to stop it.  Most 25/06 and 30/06 loads stop in under 25" of paper.  Expanding handgun take abotu 15-20"

Have fun

Hcliff

[snuffy]

that's when I'll worry about how much penetration would be needed. What you would have to do is develope a correlation between flesh and whatever test medium you are using. Darn hard to do because critters are not solid or consistant in their make up. If we all could hit them squarely in the ribs and always hit a rib bone on the way in, then we would have real data to draw upon. Then only for the bullet used at the velocity it was at and at whatever yardage.

I feel we make this more complicated that we maybe should. A well constructed jacketed bullet in the right place at enough velocity will penetrate enough to kill quickly. A hard cast lead bullet with a big flat meplate, will cause a lot of hydraulic shock. It doesn't need to expand. It will also penetrate deeply.

When I tested the new Hornady interbond, I used water filled gallon milk jugs lined up long ways. It's cheap, easily transported, not too heavy, and repeatable.

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=14407&highlight=

Again, critters are not solid water either. But you can get a reliable indication of expansion, weight retention and penetration.